Darned scales!

That diagram shows the C major scale. But, in this case, they are starting it from F, the lowest fretted note on the guitar and continuing all the way up to G on the first string.

FGABCDEFGABCDEFGABCDEFG

As for all the other sales, they all have their own arrangement of whole steps and half steps. For example, the natural minor scale's arrangement of whole steps and half steps is WHWWWHWW.

That diagram shows the C major scale. But, in this case, they are starting it from F, the lowest fretted note on the guitar and continuing all the way up to G on the first string.

FGABCDEFGABCDEFGABCDEFG

As for all the other sales, they all have their own arrangement of whole steps and half steps. For example, the natural minor scale's arrangement of whole steps and half steps is WHWWWHWW.

Think you may have one extra "W" in that natural minor scale....

That diagram shows the C major scale. But, in this case, they are starting it from F, the lowest fretted note on the guitar and continuing all the way up to G on the first string.

FGABCDEFGABCDEFGABCDEFG

As for all the other sales, they all have their own arrangement of whole steps and half steps. For example, the natural minor scale's arrangement of whole steps and half steps is WHWWWHWW.

Think you may have one extra "W" in that natural minor scale....

Oops - Well spotted ldavis. Thanks for that :lol:

IT NOT NECESSARY TO LEARN ALL THAT. It only looks like that because of the tuning of a guitar. E>A a perfect 4th, A>D is a perfect 4th, D>G is a perfect 4th, G>B is a MAJOR 3RD B>E is a perfect 4th. What you see is NOT what you get on a guitar. Don't make the mistake that most guitarist do by assuming there is not way to make sense of it and you must memorize the fretboard up and down. If you start on the low E and learn 3 major scale patterns, 1 starting on your 1st finger, one starting on your 2nd finger(this is the easiest to play), and one starting on your pinky you will be doing yourself a huge favor. When you start on a lower string and end up having to make the jump from G>B you simply move your fret hand one extra fret toward your body and then proceed as normal. Playing this way will benefit you, trust me. Don't learn that pattern or it will trap you in a box of mediocrity.

Learning to play this way will also make it very easy to alter the scales. Picture this, you want to play a melodic minor scale so that has a b3. If you learn those boxes you will have to hunt down every 3rd in every random spot and relearn the whole huge pattern again. If you understand and use your knowledge of scales then you will already know where all the 3rds were and flat them in a second with no problem, and no month of relearning that stupid pattern. I wish someone had said this to me 2 years ago, would have saved me a lot of time and I probably wouldn't have felt the need to switch to mandolin.

Only think about the major scale (or any scale) in 3 ways starting from each finger so when you happen to end up on the 1st degree of the scale on any finger, you immidiatly know how to build the rest of the scale. I did not include starting on the 3rd finger because it is cumbersome and not very useful, if you end up on your 3rd finger you are just a slide away from any of these 3 patterns.

You can use whatever fingering is comfortable really, but use these patterns and try to make sure your not neglecting your pinky.


Thanks a lot Dneck, that really helped! So if I understand this right this pattern is movable and if I start any of these from a C I play the C major scale.

Are the pentatonic minor scale made a similar way with only a few patterns working a cross the whole body? Are all scales possible to break down to a few patterns like these?


1st position
E || | | | | | | | | |
B || | | | | | | | | |
G || | | | | | | | | |
D || | | | | | 1 | 2 | | |
A || | | | | 1 | | 3 | | 4 |
E || | | | | 1 | | 3 | | 4 |

I found 1st position to be more comfortable this way. You can move these patterns to different strings too... but this same pattern starting on the D string (to illustrate the evil B string's difference in tuning). I've kept to the Key of A just for fun.

1st position
E || | | | | | | | | | | |
B || | | | | | | | | 2 | 3 | |
G || | | | | | | 1 | | 3 | | 4 |
D || | | | | | | 1 | | 3 | | 4 |
A || | | | | | | | | | | |
E || | | | | | | | | | | |


Or worse, the G string (F# marks where it would have been in the original pattern but I moved it to the next string for ease of playing... I broke the pattern to do this but it could be played there)

1st position
E || | 1 | | 3 | 4 | |
B || | | 2 | | 4 | | (F#)
G || | 1 | | 3 | | 4 |
D || | | | | | |
A || | | | | | |
E || | | | | | |

I appreciate how nice that B string tuning quirk is in terms of playing chords, but it can sure make a mess of scales. If I messed up the actual notes on any of those let me know and I'll correct my post, I double checked (especially the last one) but I tend to make mistakes on these kinds of things. And yes, you could do the same thing with the any scale, the chromatic scale just for fun (in the key of A!)....

1st position
E || 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | | | | |
B || | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | | | |
G || | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | | | |
D || | | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | | |
A || | | | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | |
E || | | | | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 |


I appologize if these don't all fit well in your browser window

Yes they are completely moveable, just remember to adjust when moving G>B. If you take those patterns and put 123 etc starting on the first note it will give you the degrees of the major scale, It is very important to know what degree your on. To make sure you understand see if you can make the minor scale patterns yourself, just flat the 3rd 6th and 7th. You might find you want to adjust whether you go up a fret or down a string to make it more comfortable, do whatever is easiest for you.

It is probably a good idea to get comfortable with those major scale patterns, and then make and learn the same thing for the natural minor scale. If you wanted to play in the lydian mode, just take the major scale pattern and sharp the 4th. If you want to play in the dorian mode just take the minor scale and make the 6 natural. There is really only ONE pattern that you alter.

If you notice, when you take 2nd position and start it somewhere on the G string, because of the move, it will make the pattern that most guitarist are familiar with. But you built it instead of memorizing it.

Maliciant your dead on, it is great to give you a variety of easy to play chords, but it sucks because it ruins the visual presentation of the notes. 1st position is a little hard to play, but 2nd and 4th position are very comfortable, using these patterns will make it much easier to find the next note you want, and because they all connect, you can always slide up or down to the nearest comfort zone.

This is the same theory that they use to teach classical violin scales, and mandolin scales on jazzmando.com

The real goal is to see no difference between going up a fret and down a string

Ohh damned B string, that made everything harder, I'll just have to move one fret towards me when when doing the G->B jump.

With minor scale, is the only difference that I move just on fret one step earlier than in the major scale. This site calls it the C Natural Pure Minor is that the same thing? What scale are good if you want to learn to improvise rock/metal things? http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/guitar_scales.php?qqq=FULL&scch=C&scchnam=Natural+%28Pure%29+Minor&get2=Get

Ya that is the natural minor scale, never heard it called pure before but I guess they are just trying to say no alterations. If you notice all of the patterns connect, at the end of 1st position you are basically starting in 2nd position, and at the end of 2nd position you can go on in 4th position. Try making it down all 6 strings by connecting the patterns.

If you start on the 6th degree of the major scale and move up to the octave, i.e. In that A major scale I showed you if you start on F# and move through the scale to the next F#, surprise you have made the F# minor scale. That is why they call F# the "relative minor" for A major. They use the same notes in a different order, they really are different.

You should think about altering the scales. To turn the A major scale into the A minor scale (this is called the "parallel minor") you have to move 3 notes the 3rd, 6th, and 7th must be flatted, so this means move the C# down to a C, the F# down to a F, and the G# down to a G. Now notice you have no #'s anymore it is all normal notes, like the C major scale. A minor is the "relative minor" to C major! They relate the same way F# minor related to A Major.

What scales to use depends on context. Rock is based on the blues, so you would probably want to stick with a minor sounding scale. A lot of guitar solo's that you really like most likely don't stray too far from a pentatonic scale. A lot of famous rock guitarist really aren't very good, they learn those box patterns and know how to be safe. The pentatonic scales are a good place to start learning how to improvise, but think of them as training wheels that youd like to take off one day. Now listen to a band like Led Zeppelin, they understood music and definetly weren't fooling around with a pentatonic scale.

Improvising should not be thought of as "playing notes that don't sound bad" that is easy, anyone can do that. True improvising is "spontaneous composition." You think the note in your head and you play it. That is very hard, it takes good ear training and a lot of practice. Some people can just do this naturally, I just saw this 5 year old the other day who can listen to a song and immidiatly play it note for note, were talking Mozart and Bach too not some 12 bar blues. But unfortunatly for most of us that is not the case, just keep practicing and LISTEN. Listening is the most important part about music, and most often ignored.

As for metal I don't really know, I know you want to add a lot of tension but i've never really spent too much time on it. Maybe someone else here can answer that. I'd imagine it is like anything else though, if you can think the notes that you would play while listening to a song then the only thing standing in your way is making the connection from your brain to your fingers.

I thinkI get it though I'm not sure what you mean with going from diffrent positons to another. I understand that you can do it but not how you do it, sorry for sounding like a moron but we all have to do that to learn something :wink:

First of all the only way to understand something is to ask questions. A little over a year ago I was on here and I didn't know anything and asked a lot of very stupid question to noteboat for like a period of a week before I finally understood what made the modes different.

What I meant was if you start on the A major 2nd position pattern on Low E you play though till you come back to A again and it is on your pinky. Now you could use that as the starting place for 4th position and continue strait down the strings, or you could slide up a fret and you would be in 2nd position again.

I'm sure I'll bump into some more problems but for now I've at least understood a bit about scales. Thanks a lot for the help!

If you start on the 6th degree of the major scale and move up to the octave, i.e. In that A major scale I showed you if you start on F# and move through the scale to the next F#, surprise you have made the F# minor scale. That is why they call F# the "relative minor" for A major. They use the same notes in a different order, they really are different.

Dneck, I'm not sure I understand what you mean with that. What do you mean with the 6th degree?