Dominant 13

well, I've been recently getting into jazz a lot, and I hit this really early on, for a guitar, this is purely a concept, you can do it with 2 guitars, but when you hit big 7 note chords it's a harmony issue, with other instruments

So prehaps having the root played on bass i might be able to pull off the rest of the chord on my guitar?

cheers for the V quick response!

Once you get above four notes in a chord, you tend to use voicings on the guitar. For 13ths, it's absolutely essential - you run out of strings, as you've noticed - but for 9ths and 11ths, many fingerings become impractical if you're trying to include every chord note.

What you want to do is get the 'flavor' of the chord. Certain notes are more important than others in doing that...

The 'highest' note is essential - a 13th voicing without the 13th might just as well be called an 11th (or whatever the highest note is in the voicing)

The 7th is important - that's what gives it the dominant sound

The 3rd is fairly important - that's what separates majors from minors

Having the root isn't all that important, as the bass player will normally fill in the root (or 5th)

Here's a few common voicings for D13, just to give you an idea:

-7-7--7--10-10-12-x---x---x--
-5-7--7--12-12-12-12-12-12-
-5-5--9--11-11-11-11-11--9--
-4-x-10--10-10-10-10-10-10-
-x-5--x--12-12--x--x---x---9--
-5-x-10--x--10-10-10-12--x

From left to right, they have:
5-3-b7-9-13 (no root, no 11)
R-b7-3-13 (no 5, 9, or 11)
R-b7-9-3-13 (no 5 or 11)
b7-3-13-R (no 5, 9, or 11)
R-5-b7-3-13-R (no 9 or 11)
R-5-b7-3-13-9 (no 11)
9-b7-3-13 (no root, 5, 9, or 11)
3-b7-9-13 (no root, 5, 11)

so, say that nobody else is palying the root, is it still effective to eliminate it?

Yeah, it's still effective. If you've got a chord like C13, it's a dominant chord - so it's going to lead naturally to an F chord. To simplify things, look at the change G7 - C .... if instead of playing G7 (G-B-D-F), you play Bº (B-D-F), it'll sound just fine to your ear.

Chords don't stand alone - they have a role in a progression, so you can make extensions, substitutions, and simplifications, and as long as they fit the same role in the progression, the listener's ear will 'fill in the blanks'.

if i was faced with that puzzle, i wouldnt even think twice, i would leave out the fifth..

isnt that normal?

Just play a double-neck guitar. :lol:

Sorry!

The root and the fifth are totally unnecessary for guitar players in a jazz band. That dominant 13 is going to be about 3 notes (especially playing bop)...I would play the 3rd, b7th, and 13th. You only really add the other tensions (9, 11) if they are mentioned in the chord name. If told to play a C9#11b13, you better use all three of those tensions! =P Hopefully at that point you have someone else to play the rest of the chord...or stretchy fingers.

This stuff is my fav....

There are two solid ways to approach this, one including accompanyment, one exluding.

In Jazz including and excluding notes is half the fun lets analyze a dominant 13 chord.

C-E-G-Bb-D-F-A

C is your root, a bass player would take it...you could drop it...even solo.

E is your pitch on whether the chord is major or minor...definately necessary....however the A would be like have a 6th chord which has a minor tonality to it...you can drop the A or the E but not both.

G is the most inactive tone in the chord only strengthening your resolve....you can almost always ditch your 5th.

Bb I would say is the most important note in the chord...if your gonna drop something it isnt your dominant tone....a dominant tone isnt dominant without it.

D Would only be necessary if you were playing a strong dorian jazz oriented peice...it could be excluded. I would choose between the D and the F depending where you were moving to next. If its the 4th choose the F if its scalewise choose the D.

F See D

A see E

Hmmm fun stuff.

Kido

I would play the 3rd, b7th, and 13th.

Agreed. You can't go without the 3 or b7, and it wouldn't be much of a 13 chord without the 13th now, would it?

I normally finger it (as noteboat already showed)

C13:
x
10
9
8
x
8

I included the root because if you play by yourself (like I do) it's worth sticking in there.

You could even play it as:

0
10
0
8
x
8

if you wanted to stick the 5 in, but you wouldn't be able to use that shape for other 13 chords.