Is a power chord a chord??

How about this...geometrically it takes two points to define a line and three to define a plane.

If you only know two points how do you know if it is a plane?

If you know two points, which define a line, and another line that is parallel, well then you can define the plane.

If you know two points, and you know it's part of a bunch of planes that all share a common third point, then you can define it.

If you have two lines with a common point of intersection then you can define the plane.

Or if you have two points and a vector....

I sucked at geometry, but the point is you are defining something by context.

Are you suggesting that a power chord is the hypotenuse? :wink:

But again, since the authoritative definition of a chord according to the music theorists is two or more notes, you don't need any additional context to call it a chord.

a power-chord is counter-point

huh? Power chords generally use similar motion...and they are perfect fifths. So what exactly do you mean?

Technically, Kingpatzer is right.

The term "counterpoint" comes from the Latin phrase "punctus contra punctum" - point against point. What's known today as first species counterpoint, where a note in one voice is always matched with a note in the other voice.

The 'rules' of counterpoint, like avoiding perfect fifths in parallel motion, came later. So a steady run of perfect fifths, like say "Smells Like Teen Spirit" is in fact counterpoint... it's just bad counterpoint :)

The 'rules' of counterpoint, like avoiding perfect fifths in parallel motion, came later. So a steady run of perfect fifths, like say "Smells Like Teen Spirit" is in fact counterpoint... it's just bad counterpoint :)

Not quite - The power chord sequence in "Smells like teen spirit" isn't BAD counterpoint - it's not ANY kind of counterpoint. The essence of counterpoint lies in the balancing and contrasting of individual parts, even in the simplest "note against note" species. Where those parts occasionally happen to move in parallel 5ths or octaves, it may be considered 'bad' counterpoint at those points.

That's not the case with "Smells like teen spirit" as there are no individual and separate parts involved in making up those power chords. - Just ONE part.

To take a classical example, Mozart's "Eine Klein Nachtmusik" opens with an extended phrase in parallel octaves and unisons. This is simply 'padding out' the texture - it's not counterpoint.

Which takes us back to my post that it depends on context . . .

Which takes us back to my post that it depends on context . . .

Exactly!

Also, it's worth noting that the "2 or more notes" definition as given by the authoritative Groves Dictionary, supplied by Musenfreund, contradicts the equally authoritative "3 or more note" version given in the Harvard dictionary as supplied by NoteBoat - which brings me back to my original point:

There is no universally acknowledged definition for this term.

Hmm, I hadn't noticed the citation in Tom's post. How bizarre. You'd think there'd be some agreement in the field as to something as basic as a chord.

Not quite - The power chord sequence in "Smells like teen spirit" isn't BAD counterpoint - it's not ANY kind of counterpoint. The essence of counterpoint lies in the balancing and contrasting of individual parts, even in the simplest "note against note" species. Where those parts occasionally happen to move in parallel 5ths or octaves, it may be considered 'bad' counterpoint at those points.

That's not the case with "Smells like teen spirit" as there are no individual and separate parts involved in making up those power chords. - Just ONE part.

To take a classical example, Mozart's "Eine Klein Nachtmusik" opens with an extended phrase in parallel octaves and unisons. This is simply 'padding out' the texture - it's not counterpoint.

I'd argue that it IS counterpoint. Pretty much what was being written about 1000 years ago.

What's required for counterpoint? Two voices (or more) are clearly required - Teen Spirt... check

One voice that defines a main melody... check

Both voices in motion... check

So what separates 'counterpoint' from simple movement in parallel intervals (called 'parallel organum', which flourished from about 900-1200AD)? Really, it's the fact that in parallel organum, the voices do that throughout, and in counterpoint, the two voices are different in some way.

Teen Spirit... check. The second voice is tacet at times, when the guitar plays single notes C and F :)

I'd argue that it IS counterpoint. Pretty much what was being written about 1000 years ago.

What's required for counterpoint? Two voices (or more) are clearly required - Teen Spirt... check

Yes, two or more voices are required, but my point is that Teen Spirit has only one. Two notes at the same time don't necessarily mean two individual voices, and in this case, they certainly don't.

So what separates 'counterpoint' from simple movement in parallel intervals (called 'parallel organum', which flourished from about 900-1200AD)? Really, it's the fact that in parallel organum, the voices do that throughout, and in counterpoint, the two voices are different in some way.

Agreed. And I'd go further. In counterpoint, the intention is to present the voices as individual entities. But if the intention is to minimise their individuality by presenting them in parallel perfect intervals of identical duration - the result is homophonic more than polyphonic - and the term 'counterpoint' doesn't really apply.
In Teen Spirit, small differences such as one note dropping out of the power chord at times don't give anyone the impression that we're hearing two individual voices at work. All that's heard is a change of harmonic texture.

I get what your both saying, but for practical terms if you want to write counterpoint I think that each voice should be able to stand alone and sound different then the other voice. Personally I find that some of my favorite parts that I write are movements to or from a perfect 5th interval, just not BOTH voices at the same time. You can make some really powerful contrasts by using a perfect fifth that noone saw coming.

Basically what I mean that even if you could technically build an argument that "smells like teen spirit" is counterpoint, why? It would just confuse people trying to learn, I think we can all agree that "smells like teen spirit" would be a terrible example of how to write a counterpoint. Even if it was just a 1st species example.

But the answer to the question at hand is: depends on context.

If you just wrote out two notes on a staff, which happened to define an interval of a perfect 5th, and there was nothing else around it, and you handed it to an average music theory major and asked "is that a chord" the answer you would most likely get would be "No."

If you took that same interval and put it in one bar of a 12-bar blues progression, you'd probably get a few more people saying "Yes, it's functioning as a major chord, the 3rd is implied," but you'd still have a few folks who would say "No."

If you took that interval and put it in the context of a counter-punctual movement, even more people would say no.

What I'm playing
could be major
could be minor
could be neither
Counterpunctual
perfect interval
moving parallel
but geometrical?

Yeah......

Yeah......

All apologies to Nirvana

there's an odd brilliance to that ...

lol, nice one :D ... I hear Weird Al's "Smells Like Nirvana" when I read that...

Sort of like an E7#9 when played by Jimi Hendrix or Joe Walsh... They both drop the 5th in that chord and the name remains the same.

Looks like this was a topic just dying to be discussed...

(;
Fretsource is correct, you can eliminate a note and still have a chord... IF the context tells your ear it's a chord.
thats interesting and I believe relates to this question
http://forums.guitarnoise.com/viewtopic.php?t=34164

So if Eadd11 is E G# B A and Eadd11 without the fifth is E G# A
how do we notate this new chord ? Do we still just call it Eadd11

Paul