Minor Suspended Chords?

You're right, there's no 3rd in a sus chord. It's E7 sus, which is E A B D (1 4 5 b7). The 5th can be omitted as normally it has no important role in this chord, and there's no need to mention its omission in the chord name.

The minor third may be implied by the context, to the extent that the chord's 4th is displacing the expected minor 3rd, G rather than the major 3rd, G#, (especially if the A of the sus chord resolves to the G in the next chord) and that may be the reason they're calling it Em7 sus. But it's not implying that the G should be present in the sus chord. Even though G is in the vocal line, it's not in the guitar part, so needn't figure in the chord name.

I was surprised to see the diagrams in Chordie showing the G#. In fact, they're showing lots of E7th chords and calling them E minor 7 sus! :shock:

Thanks for clarifying things, Fretsource! Very helpful.

Odd thing is, the music we're using is of the official licensed / published / paid-for variety. Strange to see them use the "minor-sus" chord name in there.

On a slightly relatedish note...

Why can you augment major chords, and diminish minor chords, but not the other way 'round? Since it's the 5th we're altering, surely you could e.g. augment an A minor? There's no doubt some logical explanation, but my brain is not reaching it right now.

Augmenting Amin would give you A,C,F, so you could argue that augmenting a minor would just result in a major chord in first inversion, but diminishing Gmaj gives you G,B,Csharp/Dflat and I can't think what chord that could be other than Gmajdim.

(Possibly another Scrybe idiot moment)

Technically, you can augment the 5th of a minor chord, but as you noted, it will be the same as another far more common chord. Whether you call it A min (#5) (A C E#) or F major in first inversion (A C F) would depend on the context, but contexts with the A min - augmented 5th are very few and far between compared to F maj. It will also NOT be a triad (in the traditional sense) as triads are composed of major and/or minor 3rds but this chord would contain a minor 3rd (A-C) plus augmented 3rd (C-E#).

Major chords with the b5 are also possible and tend to be more common as part of 7ths or other extended chords, e.g., D7b5b9 = D F# Ab C Eb. Play it as x54544 - very jazzy
Again, the 3 note chord (D F# Ab) isn't a triad as it contains a major 3rd (D-F#) plus a diminished 3rd (F#-Ab),

Thanks Fretsource, a partial idiot moment on my account then, as I've played 7b5 chords a lot, but somehow forgot all about them while pondering this one. Any tips on where a straight b5 chord (no extensions or other alterations in it) might be employed?

Any tips on where a straight b5 chord (no extensions or other alterations in it) might be employed?

Nope - I can't say I've ever seen it in chord notation. I've seen it in standard notation, but probably just as a chromatic passing note. For example, C major going to Db major - where the G note of the C chord passes through G flat to get to F of the Db chord. As a brief passing note, it's not a chord tone, so the 3 notes (C E & Gb) don't deserve to be named as a chord in its own right - but if it's slow enough to let us hear the tritone effect of the diminished 5th between C and Gb resolving to Db & F of the Db chord, then you could argue that it needs a name - but in that particular context it might be better named as a rootless Ab7+ (Ab C E Gb). (Ab being the V chord of Db).

Thanks Fretsource, I've never noticed one either, but wasn't sure if that was a result of my knowledge limits or not.

Generally speaking, a major chord with a b5 will be usually referred to as a raised 4th, or #11, which implies a Lydian sound.

The difference is that a b5 implies that there's no natural fifth...so the resulting scale would be C D E F Gb A B C. Which is pretty exotic sounding...so the ear will expect the Lydian scale if you use the #11/b5.

I'm sure you could find examples of simple Lydian chords being used, but I can't think of anything right now.

Sorry, but "generally speaking" that's dead wrong. A major chord with a b5 is exactly that - a triad with a flatted fifth. It doesn't imply there's no natural fifth; there IS no natural fifth. They're extremely rare; I've seen them in charts only a couple times in my life.

Second, chords are not noted as #4. The only time "4" is used in a chord name is in a "sus4" chord, which is actually redundant - suspension implies a 4, so Csus is the same as Csus4. In fact, the only even number that is ever used in a chord name is 6 - using 6 implies there is no 7; using 13 implies there is.

Third, "Lydian chord"... that's used in jazz, but it's a MAJOR SEVENTH chord type with a #11. The Lydian scale works well over it, but so will the major scale a fourth lower, or any other related mode. That's because every "related" mode harmonizes the same way - they have the same notes! If you're in the key of C, the 11th chord based on F will be Fmaj9/#11: F-A-C-E-G-B (R-3-5-7-9-#11). It only implies Lydian mode if F is the tonal center.

Scrybe, there are two reasons you'll find them as scarce as hen's teeth, one theoretical and the other practical. The theoretical reason is that chords are built by stacking major and minor thirds. In a C5 chord you'd have a major third-diminished third, which doesn't fit the mold. On the other hand, C+ chords (major third-major third) and Cm7b5 chords (minor third-minor third-major third) are very common.

In practice, there are a couple chords that don't fit the classical model, but are often used: the "sus" chord, and the 6/9. Each includes a perfect fourth in the chord. But both of those are relatively stable sounds; they don't have a tension. A chord with a b5 contains a tritone interval, which is always a tension - it will function as a dominant type. Tritones naturally resolve by expansion, with one tone moving up by a half step and the other moving down. That means the tritone between C-Gb implies you're using it in place of an Ab7 (Ab-C-Eb-Gb) or in place of D7 (D-F#-A-C). So if you use the tones C-E-Gb, it's usually a simplification of Ab7+ (Ab-C-E-Gb) or D9 (D-F#-A-C-E), and it's going to resolve to a Db or G chord root - one half of the tritone will move up to become the root (C -> Db or F# -> G), and the other half moves down to become the third (Gb -> F or C -> B)

Noteboat, I say this with all seriousness, you sir are truly awesome. Had you been my first theory tutor, I think I would have got theory first time around, so your students are very lucky. Thanks!

Edit: No offence intended there to Fretsource, whose comments were also illuminating and bloody useful, I'm just digging all the learning I do on this site...

In fact, the only even number that is ever used in a chord name is 6 - using 6 implies there is no 7; using 13 implies there is.

I see 2 chords very often; not "sus2" but rather C2, E2, G2 etc. I recognize they probably mean 9ths, but as with the source of the Em7sus that inspired the thread, these are from official paid-for sheetmusic, not teenager-made tablature. Are you suggesting the sheetmusic company transcribers are ... misinformed? :lol:

Yeah, actually. A lot of them are. I see errors all the time in guitar books from the major publishers.

It seems to me that the editors of music books are either well educated in theory (which usually means they don't play guitar), or they're competent guitarists (which usually means not so much theory).

30 years or so ago, I'd find mostly errors in fingerings, because then all the big publishers had pianists as editors. Now that many of them have guitar-playing editors on staff, you see more naming errors.

No offence intended there to Fretsource, whose comments were also illuminating and bloody useful, I'm just digging all the learning I do on this site...

None taken, Scrybe, especially as Noteboat's answer (overlooking his C5 typo) is essentially the same as mine, i.e., it's a chord which isn't a standard triad as it contains a diminished 3rd, or else it's part of another chord such as Ab7+ (Ab C E Gb)with standard tritone resolution.

As for naming chords. The problem is that there is no official naming standard that covers all possible combinations of notes in all possible contexts. Who would have the authority to compile such a list? The naming system that we have inherited covers all the main chords and everyone agrees with naming majors, minors, sevenths etc. But then we have chords such as add 9 also being called add 2.

Some sources claim that it's "add 9" because it's derived from the series of 3rds that chords are made from (1-3-5-7-9-11-13) but we use the word "add" to show the 7th is missing. (1-3-5-9)
Other sources claim that it's not derived from that series of thirds. It's simply a triad with the 2nd note of the scale added (1-2-3-5) and so should be called add 2, (the same as is done with 6th chords, i.e. if the 7th is present it's a 13th chord, (1-3-5-(b)7 13) if the 7th is missing it's a 6th chord(1-3-5-6)).
The 6/9 chord then seems to have a foot in both camps.

So, given that a complete and accurate naming system that everyone can agree on is impossible, we just have to use (or live with) names that:
a) most accurately reflect the chord's structure (e.g. C minor-major7)
b) have acquired an illogical name that we all know and love, or hate in some cases (e.g., C sus2).

Sorry, but "generally speaking" that's dead wrong. A major chord with a b5 is exactly that - a triad with a flatted fifth. It doesn't imply there's no natural fifth; there IS no natural fifth. They're extremely rare; I've seen them in charts only a couple times in my life.

Sorry, maybe I didn't explain myself very well, but you're not saying anything I don't agree with.

What i'm trying to say is that is if you encounter a chord like that in a song, its more likely that it would be interpreted as a major chord with a #11, because, as you said, major chords with b5's are very rare, and the ear will tend to hear it as #11. Yes, I guess technically #11 only belong on major7th chords, but you can play one without a major 7th, and it sounds perfectly fine.

And I never meant to say you'd name a chord "#4". Guess I didnt word that very well.