Out of key

Dennis, there's a difference between chord progressions being "normal" and chord progressions being "diatonic".

Diatonic progressions stick to in-key notes; your B chord would be Bm in the key of G, and your F would need to be F#º.

But progressions don't have to be diatonic.... the composer/songwriter just has to like the results. That leads to all sorts of out-of-key notes. Look at "Dock of the Bay" - major chords on all 7 scale degrees.

Anyway.... if it sounds good, theorists can find a reason. A song in G can easily use B7 - because the relative minor of G is E minor, and the V chord in E minor is B7 (using the harmonic minor scale). Many songs switch freely between a major and a relative minor.

A tip: Don't let the drummer write songs.

A tip: Don't let the drummer write songs.
I'm hoping there's a forgotton smiley to go with that statement? Apart from the obvious there's also "The drummer plays guitar" in Corbind's original post.

Actually, I'm really proud of both those guys in their playing and writing original songs. Jimmy (drummer) plays a mean guitar but can't do both at the same time so he drums for us.

Funny, after seeing Tom's post, I realize there are so many possibilities for chords in a song.

I like to think of diatonic chords as good suggestions, but you should never think twice about changing them around if it gives you the desired effect. If everyone stayed diatonic to the major scale all the time music would be pretty boring.

The travelling wilburys "Handle With Care" also uses B7 in G major, as long as it sounds how you want it to it is "right"

Actually, in real life, whether in pop, rock, jazz or classical music, songs with chord substitutions are more common than songs with only diatonic chords.

The most common of them, minor->major, major->dom7, are so commonplace that you can hardly call them substitutions.

Using a dom7 on the ii is extremely common, especially when it is followed by a V.

Using a major on the i, ii or vi is extremely common.

Using a dom7 on the I and IV is extremely common.

Using a major bVII as a secondary dominant is extremely common.

In jazz, tritone substitutions (using a bII dom7 instead of a V7 to change key) is very common.

Using a major bVI is very common.

Using a minor IV is very common.

I've been looking at Peter Simms "walking bass jazz blues" lesson and this to try to develop it as an exercise to help me apply theory to the guitar quickly, so using different voicings, progressions, chord substitutions and stuff. Plus i think it's a pretty fun thing to do, sounds cool. Anyway, I've read a few places that "chords can be extended, as long as the integrity of the chord remains the same" and I've been wondering if it's seen as theoretically "correct" to extend chords with out of-key notes?[/url]

my wireless broadband is making this very difficult.. *kicks*

Anyway, I've read a few places that "chords can be extended, as long as the integrity of the chord remains the same" and I've been wondering if it's seen as theoretically "correct" to extend chords with out of-key notes?[/url]

Well, "extending the chord" generally means to add 7ths, 9ths, 11ths and so forth to the chord. This is very commonly done in jazz, but requires a very clean tone to sound good. Distortion is a no-no, because any added notes will soon drown in a wash of harmonics, making for a muddy mess of a "chord" with no discernible identity.

Generally, 7ths add the most "identity" to the chord and are commonly, even ubiquitously used in jazz. Thus, the I and IV typically become maj7, the ii, iii and vi, min7 and the V, a dom7.

9ths and 6ths (13ths) are pretty sweet sounding additions and are pretty commonly added to chords on most scale degrees.

11ths (4ths) are tricky. They will sound dissonant if held, but are commonly used for brief additions of colour (the typical maj - sus4 - maj). The #11 is more commonly used in jazz. This is what jazzers mean when they say the play "Lydian" over a major chord. The #11, even though it is dissonant, is less so than the 11 and will disturb the chord's identity less.

As for out of key additions:

The b9 is not commonly used. I believe it is sometimes used diatonically on the iii (min7b9). On other chords it will sound very dissonant and will usually only be used briefly as a passing note.

The b3 is very often used as a passing note up to the 3. This will give a bluesy feel as in the signature riff of the surf classic "Wipeout". If held against a chord, it is called a #9. A dom7 with a #9 (E7#9 f.ex.) is called "The Hendrix Chord" because Jimi Hendrix was fond of it. It is used as a I chord in blues/rock and as a V in jazz.

11s are rarely used except briefly (sus4 example above). They sound dissonant when held and muddy the chord's identity. m11s are more common and less dissonant.

Let's see. What's left? The b6 (b13) is a very hard addition to use effectively. It can be used briefly as a passing note up to the 6 or down to the 5. Held on a chord, it sounds very dissonant.

I hope this helps.