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Scales when soloing...

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(@clazon)
Honorable Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 502
Topic starter  

2 questions really:

1- Because I moved a little Hendrix link part from somewhere (like the 5th fret) up (this time horizontally ie. towards the bridge) to the 10th fret as a nice little intro to Heartbreaker by Led Zepp:

A------------10--12--10--------------------
E--10--12-----------------12--11--10--(7)--

When I realised that playing 3 notes together is part of what I knew as the blues scale.

SO - can scale shapes be moved up and down (literally, i mean vertically) and still be conventional shapes?

2- when I watched a program on Blues soloing, he said make sure you know the positions of your scales. Basically he meant that say you're using the minor pent scale on fret 5 E string, then you can also link these notes to notes in the same pent scale but rooted at say, I don't know the 9th and 12th frets.

SO - what are these common sets of positions that I can link together and can I link different types of scales together in different positions?

Thanks

"Today is what it means to be young..."

(Radiohead, RHCP, Jimi Hendrix - the big 3)


   
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(@greybeard)
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Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 5840
 

The scales have 5 repeating patterns ( http://people.freenet.de/greybeard/ScalePatternsAminPenta.htm - shows the patterns as related to the Aminor Pentatonic scale). These patterns are the same for each key, you just need to start on the relevant root. If you learn these patterns, you can play in any key you want, just by moving the patterns up/down the neck. They link at the top of the 5th "box" and the bottom of the frst "box", to form an endless, rotating pattern.
Whilst this gives you a certain amount of freedom, it will hamper you, in the long run. You learn to play patterns, not scales - you learn finger positions, not notes or scale degrees. Having said that, there are many guitarists who are quite happy to carry on playing "boxes".
Thes pages may also help you:
http://people.freenet.de/greybeard/ScalePages.html

I started with nothing - and I've still got most of it left.
Did you know that the word "gullible" is not in any dictionary?
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(@clazon)
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Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 502
Topic starter  

The first one looks interesting and more what I was asking in Q2, but I can't wrap my head around either.

Give me a few minutes later tonight to play around with them, then I'm sure I'll have soem related questions.

"Today is what it means to be young..."

(Radiohead, RHCP, Jimi Hendrix - the big 3)


   
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(@hawkfoggy)
Estimable Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 161
 

while you practice those patterns, i'll give you a few more that you can use ( you'll have to look them up though). i believe greybeard forgot to tell you ( meaning absolutely no disrespect to greybeard) about the modes. usely you can weld certain modes or just play them with the blues scale. for example you can weld blue and dorian to make the blues dorian scale. these modes will add a little bit of flavor to your solos.
A- Aolian
B- Locrian
C- Ionian
D- Dorian
E- Phrygian
F- Lydian
G-Mixolidian
G- IT SNAKE BIT

"I'm as free as a bird now. And this bird you can not change" Free Bird, By: Lynyrd Skynyrd
GIT SNAKE BIT!!!
stay safe


   
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(@greybeard)
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Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 5840
 

I left out modes deliberately. Until the standard scales have been mastered, there's not point in complicating matters with modes - they are something that very few guitarists actually understand, anyway.
My advice is to get the major and minor scales sorted out, first. The first thing to get down is the major scale. Here's the G major scale, showing the 5 patterns. To get another key, just move the orange "l" from the 3rd fret of the low E string (G) to whichever key you want to play in (e.g. to play in A, you'd move it to the 5th fret) and build the patterns from there. The numbers in the circles are the positions in the scale (called scale degrees).

I started with nothing - and I've still got most of it left.
Did you know that the word "gullible" is not in any dictionary?
Greybeard's Pages
My Articles & Reviews on GN


   
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(@clazon)
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Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 502
Topic starter  

The first thing to get down is the major scale. Here's the G major scale,

See, to me. The first grey bar and the last grey bar are the major scale and minor scale respectively. That's how I learnt it anyway (could be a problem with being self taught...)

On top of that I learnt three other scales being the blues scale, the minor pent and the major pent. None of which look like those grey belts in between.

"Today is what it means to be young..."

(Radiohead, RHCP, Jimi Hendrix - the big 3)


   
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(@ignar-hillstrom)
Illustrious Member
Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 5349
 

All of those patterns are all the G-major *and* Eb-minor scale. For example, let's right down the C-major scale:

C D E F G A B

Now let's right down the A-minor scale:

A B C D E F G

They are basically the same, and that's because what we call 'minor' is one of the seven modes. To keep it simple: if you start a major scale on the sixth note you'll be playing it's minor scale. So all those patterns are both major and minor, depending on where you start and how you use them. The third box is actually also the famous first box of the pentatonic minor scale if you remove the 1 and 4 notes.

And as with the major/minor scales, A-minor pentatonic is also C-major pentatonic. So you basically only have to learn the major scale in one key all over the neck and you'll know the major, minor and both pentatonics and blues scales in all keys. :D


   
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(@greybeard)
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Joined: 21 years ago
Posts: 5840
 

http://people.freenet.de/greybeard/Gscale.html
The first fretboard layout on the page, shows you every position that a note, from the key of G, appears (up to fret 15). The numbers detail the scale degree (1 is root, etc). Taking that, in it's entirety, is going to be hard to learn, so it is broken down into smaller "boxes", that make it easier to grasp. The boxes should not be seen in isolation, but as a part of the whole.
As Arjen points out, the G major patterns are the same for Eminor, because it is the relative minor of G. However, the root (and, therefore, all other scale degrees) have different positions. For example, the 2nd degree of Gmajor (A), is the 4th degree of Eminor. Compare the patterns of the Gmajor scale to the Eminor patterns here

I started with nothing - and I've still got most of it left.
Did you know that the word "gullible" is not in any dictionary?
Greybeard's Pages
My Articles & Reviews on GN


   
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(@hawkfoggy)
Estimable Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 161
 

I left out modes deliberately. Until the standard scales have been mastered, there's not point in complicating matters with modes - they are something that very few guitarists actually understand, anyway.
My advice is to get the major and minor scales sorted out, first. The first thing to get down is the major scale. Here's the G major scale, showing the 5 patterns. To get another key, just move the orange "l" from the 3rd fret of the low E string (G) to whichever key you want to play in (e.g. to play in A, you'd move it to the 5th fret) and build the patterns from there. The numbers in the circles are the positions in the scale (called scale degrees).
Thats cool. it was just some thing for future references. of corse you probly know more about music than i do.
8) 8) 8)

"I'm as free as a bird now. And this bird you can not change" Free Bird, By: Lynyrd Skynyrd
GIT SNAKE BIT!!!
stay safe


   
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(@hawkfoggy)
Estimable Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 161
 

I left out modes deliberately. Until the standard scales have been mastered, there's not point in complicating matters with modes - they are something that very few guitarists actually understand, anyway.
My advice is to get the major and minor scales sorted out, first. The first thing to get down is the major scale. Here's the G major scale, showing the 5 patterns. To get another key, just move the orange "l" from the 3rd fret of the low E string (G) to whichever key you want to play in (e.g. to play in A, you'd move it to the 5th fret) and build the patterns from there. The numbers in the circles are the positions in the scale (called scale degrees).
Thats cool. it was just some thing for future references. of corse you probly know more about music than i do.
8) 8) 8)

"I'm as free as a bird now. And this bird you can not change" Free Bird, By: Lynyrd Skynyrd
GIT SNAKE BIT!!!
stay safe


   
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(@dneck)
Prominent Member
Joined: 18 years ago
Posts: 630
 

I remember thinking about modes and not getting them at all, the key to understanding them is to treat them as seperate scales. The same seven notes can sound like 7 different scales it all depends on what key your playing them in. In order to know how to use them it is important to do more then just learn the shapes. If you learn the intervals of each scale and how each one sounds then everything becomes a whole lot easier.

For example the major scale degrees (in C) are
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
C D E F G A B

Now with C as your tonal center the 4th and 7th are points of tension so its important to keep that in mind and use them with caution while playing.

Now these same seven notes starting on the 4th F and make F your tonal center then you would get
1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
F G A B C D E

Notice it is only one note different then a F major scale. But with a little thought it will sound strange and unique. Now you have to realize that a #4 is different than a 4th, it is a point of rest and the 5th becomes much more tense. So when you want these same 7 notes to sound like a lydian scale you stress the #4 (B) and still treat the 7th E as a point of tension.

The boxes would look exactly the same and if you never bother to learn intervals then you will never unlock the potential of the major scale! It is tempting to think about the same notes in a different order as the same scale but THIS IS WRONG! The 7 note major scale is actually 7 different scales to be played in 7 different keys, and anyone who tells you all modes sound the same does not understand them.

Ive dummed this down a bit and probably skipped too much to make sense, there are a lot of great theory websites if you look on any search engine. I bought "the guitarist cookbook" which explains more then youd ever want to know. Hope some of that made sense.

"And above all, respond to all questions regarding a given song's tonal orientation in the following manner: Hell, it don't matter just kick it off!"
-Chris Thile


   
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