Question

Word association thread, Oh yeah! Who started it? jumpinJackie, that's who!
Anyway, I'll get back to you guys when I've actually read this entire thread and understand it (or try to understand it). I just wanted you to know that it's really inspiring that nobody here has played more than a year and you're all so much better than I am. I guess it's time to start practicing...

First, let me say I am qualified to answer your question because I have been playing guitar for 25 years., I was a music and comp. sci major in college and I have studied with big name playes Steve Khan, Kevin Eubanks and others.  I have also authored guitar transcription books for Hal Leonard Publishing.

The chord E, G#, B, D#, F# is of course EMaj7(add9).  No problem.  Doesn't matter what mode your in.  A chord is a chord.

The chord E, G, B, D, F is Emin7(flat 9).  Again, still doesn't matter which mode your in.  

It is very simple to figure out.  Look at your root note E and ask:
How is G related to E?  answer - minor 3rd
How is B related to E? answer - 5th
How is D related to E?  answer - 7th
How is F related to E?  answer-  1/2 step above so a flat 9.

Now, regarding the modes:  Use the modes as a way to spice up or vary your guitar solos.  Dorian is a killer mode to get used to for a guitarist because it is so similar to a minor scale, which of course has a nice implied blues/pentatonic feel which gutiar players gravitate to.  So if the chord changes are a simple ii/V pattern like Amin7 to D7, then how about playing A Dorian on that.  The notes would be:
A, B, C, D, E, F#, G   which is really a minor scale, only it has a major 6th (the F# is perfect for the D7) as opposed to a minor 6th.

Personally, I don't use the Phrygian mode that frequently (I'm more of a Dorian/Mixolydian dude) but a nice way to use the Phrygian mode is over a major chord starting at the Major 3rd.  For example:  If the band is playing a GMajor chord, then your solo can start from B:
B, C, D, E, F#, G, A

Good luck.

Andy

Thank you, i understand most of yout post 8)
So if the chord changes are a simple ii/V pattern like Amin7 to D7, then how about playing A Dorian on that.  

i thought the Dorian was played on the 2nd degree of the scale, ooh yeah, D7 (D Dominant 7th) would occur on the fifth note of the scale, meaning it would be G, and therefore Dorian would be on A, as you said. cool.
only it has a major 6th (the F# is perfect for the D7)

Erm.. i thought in a chord that a 5th was perfect.. and in a D7 chord.. the F# acts as a 3rd.. and i thought that, that was always major or minor?

you said that this scale was simply a minor scale but with a major 6th..

this scale would need a minor 3rd, a minor 6th, and a flat 7th to be like G minor (if thats what you are comparing it with) .. cos you could be comparing it to E minor (relative minor/ aeolian).
but a nice way to use the Phrygian mode is over a major chord starting at the Major 3rd.

i thought this had to be true.. because i was told say someone said to you "play the Bb Phrygian scale" (example).. then i know straight away that it is in the key of G flat major

i didnt know this rule was flexible, i thought it had to be played on the third degree of the scale.

Alex:

You are almost correct.  An accurate way to phrase what you just said is this:

"Dorian is played on the 2nd degree RELATIVE TO THE ROOT NOTE of a major scale.   For example, if dealing with G major scale, then if you start at the 2nd degree of that scale you play A Dorian.  Now, back to the ii/V...... a classic ii/V resolves you back to the I.  So in G major, the ii/V/I pattern would be Amin7 followed by D7 followed by G major.  A Dorian works perfectly over the Amin 7 and D7 chords, and it is something many Jazz players will do.

Now, regarding the Minor comparison:  I am not comparing A Dorian to any "relative minor", rather I am comparing A Dorian to A minor.
A DORIAN:  A, B, C, D, E, F#, G
A MINOR :   A, B, C, D, E, F,   G
Note that the only difference is the 7th: F vs. F#.

You see, the thing about improvisation is that whenever possible, you want to feel "FREE" so to speak.  I mean a lot of jazz tunes have fast moving changes.  One of the things Pat Martino did (he is by the way my favorite guitar player ever on this planet) is really make his thought process public in his books on this very topic.  He worked out a way of playing Dorian based lines up and down the fingerboard in every position and those lines can be used over just about any chord.  For example, the A dorian works over A minor 7 nicely moving to D7 like I said before.  But it also works great over an F# 1/2 diminished chord.  What are the notes in an F# 1/2 diminished chord? F#, A, C and E.  Sound familiar!  All these notes are in the A dorian scale.  So the classic jazz minor blues turn around is ii (1/2 diminished) followed by a V (7 flat 9) followed by the minor 1.

Example
Chord 1                          Chord 2         Chord 3
=============       ========     =======
F# min 7 (1/2 dim)            B7 (#9)         E minor

You can really play A Dorian over all 3 chords, where the only gotcha is on the 2nd chord because it has a D# in it, but that  note can still be emphasized in your lines.  A lot of jazz players will play a 1/2 chromatic type of scale made up of B, C, D, D#, F, F#, G#, A over that 2nd chord.

Even with these rules, it is good to remember that there are only 12 notes and on any given chord ALL of them can be used!!!  I think it was Miles Davis who said there are no bad notes.  It's just you probably don't want to rest a weird one, or it may sound out of tune!  

Good luck.

Ok, now I registered officially for this forum!

i understood the first paragraph  :D..

right.. i thought that the relative note's modal scale is played over the relative note.. like

in C major..

D dorian is played over D minor
B locrian is played over B7b5
G mixolydian is played over G7

or can you play any mode over any note in any key?

i read about chordal extensions with modes and what notes to use etc..
but it didnt say what modes sound nice being played over other chords in the key being worked in.

you said a lot of 7th chords.. does it only work over 7th.. do rules not apply for triads or 9ths?

what is a 1/2 diminished?????????

and you mention 7th flat 9th.. how can the 9th be flat if a seventh chord is being played? cos surely there will be no 9th in the chord.

what are the rules (guidelines) with fitting modes and chords together? my book only had modal chord extensions.

and i just presumed that you played the mode with the chord of the note, like G7 with G mixolydian (in C), C# Minor with, C# dorian (in B)..

i never really opened my mind to using other modes for other chords in the key. and dont know guidelines for what fits and what doesnt.

Wild Guess:

diminished chords have 2 minor thirds... thats why its diminished :), the 2 minor thirds make it a diminished 5th...

so im guessing a half diminished only has one minor third?

no wait..

minor 3rd + minor 3rd = diminished chord
major 3rd + minor 3rd = major chord
minor 3rd + major 3rd = minor chord

hmm, ok im lost, ignore me.

Ok, now I registered officially for this forum!

Okay, Andy, this is your official welcome to the asylum.  Glad you registered.  

Which transcriptions have you published through Hal Leonard?  Might be sitting on my music table.  

Andy Robyns is my pen name and I've transcribed close to 20 books, but I got out of the transcription business about 7 years ago or so.  Some of the books I've done include:

Alice in Chains - Dirt
Nirvana - Incesticide
Pearl jam - 10
Kiss greatest hits
Def Leppard - Adrenalize

Thanks!

Andy

"Ahhhhh, my head is on fire.  Info going in one ear and more than what went in is coming out the other."  Maybe it was the weekend twelve ounce cans or the twelve hours of moving furniture up an down three flights of stairs. . .

Andy, when I read your first and second guest post I was going to ask you to join.  We can always use experienced players with a good head to teach the masses.  Glad you decided to hang with all of us!

Jackie, "better" is all relative.  I know, I get the same guilt-trip when someone says they've been playing as long as more or less and they play better and know more about guitar.  Can't fault that person for their abilities.

Just last night I was cleaning the house (a chore I absolutely hate) and Neil Young popped up on cable doing some solo stuff.  He mesmorized me.  Played without a pick but could strum, pick (as if actually holding one), and fingerpick all in one song.  Sing while playing.  And play the harmonica to boot.  Seeing stuff like that make me feel ashamed to admit I play guitar because it's nothing like pro.

Nevertheless, you know in your heart you play because you love it.  So even if you and I bite at playing guitar it doesn't really matter.  Only that we love what we're doing.  Reminds me of the karoke singers.  Often you'll have people go up there and butcher a song.  Off key, off time.  But the smile you see on that person's face make it wothwhile.  That person is enjoying it so much it makes you as an audience member ok with it.  Even encouraging!

"Ahhhhh, my head is on fire.  Info going in one ear and more than what went in is coming out the other."  Maybe it was the weekend twelve ounce cans or the twelve hours of moving furniture up an down three flights of stairs. . .

Andy, when I read your first and second guest post I was going to ask you to join.  We can always use experienced players with a good head to teach the masses.  Glad you decided to hang with all of us!

Jackie, "better" is all relative.  I know, I get the same guilt-trip when someone says they've been playing as long as more or less and they play better and know more about guitar.  Can't fault that person for their abilities.

Just last night I was cleaning the house (a chore I absolutely hate) and Neil Young popped up on cable doing some solo stuff.  He mesmorized me.  Played without a pick but could strum, pick (as if actually holding one), and fingerpick all in one song.  Sing while playing.  And play the harmonica to boot.  Seeing stuff like that make me feel ashamed to admit I play guitar because it's nothing like pro.

Nevertheless, you know in your heart you play because you love it.  So even if you and I bite at playing guitar it doesn't really matter.  Only that we love what we're doing.  Reminds me of the karoke singers.  Often you'll have people go up there and butcher a song.  Off key, off time.  But the smile you see on that person's face make it wothwhile.  That person is enjoying it so much it makes you as an audience member ok with it.  Even encouraging!

Corbind--
i caught some of that too.  It was his new stuff -- the Greendale, CA cycle, right?  Looks pretty cool.
I should admonish myself for getting off topic.  There, I hit myself upside the head.  I feel better now.
Tim

Alex, I read the first three pages of this page.  I am amazed to see how much the moderators are confused...  I really hate it when people learn by ear only and know nothing about theory.

Ok, let's see, I can explain this crap!  Easy!

1.  Emaj7add9  the notes you put down are correct, E G# B D# F#

2.  The notes you listed for E 9th in C is correct but misnamed.  It would be called Emin7add9.  E is the phrygian mode of C Ionian aka Major.  No need to repeat what you already know.

3. The chord name can show what key or mode it is in.  Major 5ths and minor 5ths can belong to multiple keys or modes.  But the futher the chord is extended the scales or modes it belongs to will become more narrow and limited.  Major 5th can belong to Ionian, Lydian, Mixolydian.  That's something you can study.  I studied that for the longest time.  

It would be good for you to pick up a copy of The Guitar Handbook by Ralph Denyer.  I have a copy of The Complete Guitarist and I really hate that book.  It's so basic and doesn't teach anything, basically it conditions you to play a certain way and limits you.

Chord construction would be great learning.  

Most books say that the basic chords are the major, minor, dominant and diminished.  That doesn't say much.  I think it is better to say that the basics are those major7th, minor7th, dominant7th and diminished7th.  

There are formulas for chords constructed from the Ionian scale.  Like major is the 1-3-5-7 (first, third, fifth, and seventh degree of the ionian scale).  1-b3-5-b7 the minor7th chord constructed from C ionian would be C-bE-G-bB.  Dominant is 1-3-5-b7 and diminished is 1-b3-b5-bb7, you see where I am going?

An extended chord like your major7thadd9 is theoretically is adding to a triad that is more than an octave above the root.  Because the EMaj7add9 is extended beyond the octave of the chord root it is an extended chord...got that?

What you seem to be confused about is how to name them.  Your e chord should be named Emaj9.  If it were spelled out like this:  E-#G-B-F# There is a gap in the order of thirds then the chord would be called EMajadd9.  Hmm I am confusing myself a bit.  You know what I mean by the "add"?

Do check out the book!  The book has a good chunk of chord construction and how to name them all the way up to the 13th chords and a bit of polychords.  Best I've ever seen by far!

What else?  Oh!  To clear up the modes and keys confusion.  It's like this Emaj can belong to The key of E major or A Major or B Major.  Or E major can belong to E Ionian, F# Dorian, G# Phrygian, A Lydian, B Mixolydian, C# Aeolian, and D# Locrian.

We mods are just learners and players like everyone else, sharing what we can and learning along the way too.  Speaking for myself, I am learning theory but am a beginner at it, as I stated early on in this thread.  Which has, I think, been an interesting one.  I've learned a lot from it.

The mods are just users of GN who make time to uphold the customs of this site, we're not the thought police. Like everyone else here we know some things and look for answers to other things.
I learn all the time from the contributions of others. If my knowledge can help someone else then I have made a contribution.
A couple of the recent threads have set me off on a hunt for answers to the mysteries of chord progressions and an indirect link in another thread has got me interested in chord melodies.
We drink from the same well of knowledge that you do.

spider pain that post made me stop lurkin. Alex asked and they answered.  Did u read the thread? If u did then u know the question needed some clearing up. soon as u post another 1000 or so then u can slam the mods.  they make it so people like u and me can learn something.