Even before sharps and flats became common practice, C ionian (the only Ionian) was better than all the other modes at making good chord progressions.
So is that how sharps and flats came about? because if C has better chord progressions before sharps and flats then there is obviously some notes inbetween being ignored that are making it sound better, cos surely the difference other than what note they start on is just the same so using the I, III, V would be the same for each of the old scales
Cheers
Tiffer
EDIT: this is probably rubbish and dont feel like you should answer if it is but maybe this would answer my question.. maybe... was their a structure back then, like for a "major" chord, as in I III V, or just experiments that sounded more pleasing, did this make C better, or is it while coming up with a structure something was decided about adding the sharps and flats. I keep getting more questions as I think about it that im not sure will be that important, I should hve listened to the warnings of modes
Instead of saying that the Ionian mode made better chord progressions than all the other modes, I should have said that the Ionian mode showed more promise when it came to combining notes harmoniously.
At this time there was no developed chord system. Mostly there were two note intervals of a perfect fifth. They only had 7 notes to combine in pairs. So the notes C & G combined well, as did D & A, E& B, etc - those are perfect fifths and were the chords of the day. They simply combined any note with another one 5 notes higher. That worked fine except for one solitary jarring exception - Combining the notes B & F didn't work. It produced the dreaded tritone or diminished fifth, which sounded not at all harmonious and was promptly banned by various church authorities as having come from the Devil :shock:
The answer to this problem was to stretch that interval so that it sounded as pure as all the other fifths. And that was done by flatting the B. The first ever accidental. This didn't fix the problem completely, it just shifted it somewhere else. (e.g., E to Bb).
So all modes had this tritone problem but it was soon realised that the tritone wasn't all bad. It depended on where it occured in the mode. If it occured between the seventh and fourth notes, it strengthened the principal note of the mode, but if it occured anywhere else it weaked the principal note. Only in the Ionian mode does it occur between the seventh and fourth notes (B to F) - so it strengthened that mode and its principal note but weakened all the other modes and hastened their demise.
There were other reasons too that led to the introduction of sharps and flats but this is the reason most relevant to your question.
Ahhha ok, good stuff, I get it, thanks very much for your help!
Tiffer
Actually, both the Ionian scale and chord structures came about much later (in the Western tradition anyway) than accidentals. Flats grew from the Lydian mode - one of the four remaining early church modes.
Using the Lydian mode to create melodies placed a bit of a demand on singers... sing what was on the page (B natural) or sing the note your ears said should be sung there to make it pleasing (B flat). A lot of singers went with B flat, which gave the composers fits - they called performances using B flat "musica ficta" (false music). References to musica ficta go back to about the 900s; the Ionian mode didn't make its debut until about 650 years later*
By the 1200s, music theorists were starting to categorize different uses of musica ficta by singers, and within about 150 years we start seeing multiple flats written in some pieces. Sharps debut in the early renaissance period, around 1450; the major scale starts being used by composers about a century later, in the late renaissance.
One other factor to consider in looking at how things developed is something that Fretsource mentioned - music of these times didn't have "chords". Oh, you could have three or more notes sounded at the same time, but they weren't chord progressions as we know them today.
Here's a brief look at how music developed into today's chord progressions:
1. Monophony. Single line melodies, originally for singing. They date to prehistory.
2. Organum. The whole choir starts on the tonic, and half the choir stays there. The other half runs with the usual melody; this creates intervals. This part gets rolling in the 9th century.
3. Free organum. The second half of the choir is no longer confined to the tonic - sometimes it stays there, sometimes it moves. Starting in about the 11th century, it can either stay put (creating oblique motion) or move along with the main melody (creating parallel motion). Around the 12th century, it can also move the opposite direction - contrary motion - supplying the last key needed for...
4. Counterpoint, which develops directly from late free organum. Two simultaneous melodies. If two is good, three is better, and we get...
5. Polyphony. By the early 14th century, we really pile those voices on! What's occuring in the music sounds like chords, and we can analyze them as chords, but they didn't think that way. Those chords we rip through today were simply by-products of simultaneious melodies. Stuff that looks like chords begins to appear in the 13th century, but it isn't until we recognize chord movements that we get...
6. Homophony. This is chord-based music. It begins around 1600 with one or more instruments noted as "continuo" banging out chords in a repeating progression. That could be a harpsichord, an organ, a lute, or a small string section. Over that, we've got one or more melodies making the interesting stuff happen. That tradition continues today in pop music, but with less emphasis on the interesting stuff above the chords :)
*that's the debut in Western theory - there is now some evidence that the major scale and other 'sophisticated' concepts like polyphony actually go back several millenida in other cultures!
Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL
Actually, both the Ionian scale and chord structures came about much later (in the Western tradition anyway) than accidentals. Flats grew from the Lydian mode - one of the four remaining early church modes.
I thought we had already agreed that the Ionian mode existed (even in the Western tradition) centuries before it was named as such by the theorist Glareanus in the mid 16th century. I pointed out that it was the application of musica ficta to the Lydian mode (flatting the B) that had contributed to the growing popularity of the as yet unnamed Ionian mode (although the church never accepted it). And you pointed to its independent use in secular music.
This melodic use of accidentals is what I hinted at to Tiffer when I said there were reasons other than harmonic for chromatically altering notes, but didn't dwell on it as his question was more concerned with chord progressions.
As for early chord structures/ progressions, the ninth century treatise "Musica Enchiriadis" gives rules for composing parallel organum with fifths. The "devilish" effect of the tritone was already well known and musica ficta was the obvious 'workaround'. Unfortunately so much remains unknown about the early practice of musica ficta as it was mostly done tacitly and discreetly, and its use sparsely recorded, but it certainly predates its later, well documented use in 11th century florid organum, in which the oblique movement of voices caused a multitude of intervals, both consonant and dissonant, with increasing scope for using accidentals.
Anyway, as I suggested earlier, no amount of accidentals could keep the devil's interval at bay forever. It just shifted it somewhere else. Its gradual acceptance eventually led to an increased awareness of the concept of mode tonality (as opposed to mode finality) a concept that only the unique interval series of the Ionian mode (and the modified Aeolian mode) could do full justice to, which explains their survival as the modern major/minor transposable key system at the expense of the harmonically less suitable church modes.
Ah cheers both, interesting stuff, I didnt try further into it the other day cos I went to bed but I get the gist of it all now, cheers
Ah cheers both, interesting stuff, I didnt try further into it the other day cos I went to bed but I get the gist of it all now, cheers
You don't really need all that stuff, Tiffer. Accidentals aren't directly relevant to your question but as you asked about them we got kind of sidetracked into talking about them.
What you really need is a simple demo that answers your real question - i.e., "why, out of all the modes, was the Ionian mode (aka major scale) selected as the one most suitable for chord progressions, to the extent that it alone survived intact as the foundation on which mainstream Western harmony is built". (Sorry to put words in your mouth :lol: )
As you probably know, the driving force in most Western music comes from the V7 chord (AKA the dominant seventh chord) moving to (or from) the I chord (AKA the tonic or key chord)., i.e., the chord built on the fifth degree of the scale moving to and from the chord built on the first degree of the scale. In the key of C it's the G7 to C progression. In the key of G, it's D7 to G, in E it's B7 to E and so on. , This is called the DOMINANT - TONIC RELATIONSHIP and countless millions of songs feature those chords as their main chords, because they make such a powerful and satisfying (and expected) progression.
If you look at what would happen if you build that V7 chord on all the modes you can compare their effects. Remember that to build the V7 and I chords we must use only notes of that mode.
I'm transposing them all to C for easier comparison.
Ionian (CDEFGABC) = G7 to C
Powerful and dynamic.
Dorian (CDEbFGABbC) = Gmin7 to C min
pleasant but weak
Phrygian (CDbEbFGAbBbC) = Gm7b5 to C min
No way - if anything this would lead to a new key
Lydian (CDEF#GABC) = G major7 to C
Not really - That major seventh chord with the F# (GBDF#) pulls us back to V rather than I
Mixolydian (CDEFGABbC) = G min7 to C
Pleasant but weak, especially going from a minor V to a major I
Aeolian (CDEbFGAbBbC) = G min7 to C min
pleasant but weak
Locrian (CDbEbFGbAbBbC) = Gb major 7 to C dim
No chance ... It doesn't even have a proper V chord (Gb instead of G) - and its key chord (i chord) is diminished. No wonder this mode never got off the drawing board.
Modified Aeolian/ harmonic minor scale (CDEbFGAbBC) = G7 to C min
This one is fine. With a helping hand (raising the Bb to B) this is a powerful progression with a minor feel.
So there you have it. Out of all those possibilities, only the Ionian has a suitable and naturally occuring V7 to I progression (G7 to C). And the modified Aeolian (harmonic minor scale) provides a similarly powerful and satisfying (although not naturally occuring) progression with a minor feel (G7 to Cm).
So the Ionian and, to a lesser extent, the (modified) Aeolian modes became the major and minor scales that are responsible for most of the music heard today.
Yeah, thats what I meant to say!
But yeah, um dont know why, but I cant get this, I understand about using the 7th of the 4th, if that makes sense, I know it from D Hodge's Happy New Ear lesson and I can see it there in front of me that the V7 chord on the modes works well for the Ionian and not so well with most the others, could you maybe quickly go through how for example the Phrygian is Gm7b5 and why it goes to C min
Cheers
Yeah, thats what I meant to say!
But yeah, um dont know why, but I cant get this, I understand about using the 7th of the 4th, if that makes sense, I know it from D Hodge's Happy New Ear lesson and I can see it there in front of me that the V7 chord on the modes works well for the Ionian and not so well with most the others, could you maybe quickly go through how for example the Phrygian is Gm7b5 and why it goes to C min
Cheers
Sure - the clue lies in that statement I made from the last post:
"Remember that to build the V7 and I chords we must use only notes of that mode."
The C Ionian mode is CDEFGABC
I'll write it over two octaves so that you can see more easily how we get the notes from it to build the chords
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C
Chord V7 is built on the fifth scale degree and consists of scale notes 5, 7, 9 & 11 which are G B D F as I've shown in bold. Those notes make the chord G7.
Now for chord I which is made from notes 1, 3 & 5 of that scale, which are C E & G. Those notes make the chord C major.
Now if we do exactly the same thing but using the notes of the Phrygian mode instead of the Ionian mode we get different chords because the Phrygian mode has different notes than the Ionian mode.
C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C
Again chord v7 is built on the fifth scale degree in exactly the same way using scale notes 5, 7, 9 & 11, but this time the notes are different because the scale is different. Instead of G B D F, (which makes G7) we get G Bb Db F which makes Gmin7 b5 (aka G half diminished 7th)
And chord i is again built on the first scale degree C, but instead of C E G, we get C Eb G (which is C minor), because those notes are 1, 3 & 5 of the Phrygian mode.
Summary
In C Ionian: (C D E F G A B C)
Chord V7 = notes G B D F = chord G7
Chord I = notes C E G = chord C major
In C Phrygian: (C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C)
Chord v7 = notes G Bb Db F = chord Gmin7 b5
Chord i = notes C Eb G = Chord C minor
Aha! of course! thank you very much indeed
Tiffer
here again came across this song and its in a weird key so i want to change it to make it easier to play
How do i go about it ?
G# A#m G#
I am the wilderness locked in a cage
G# A#m G#
I am a growing a force you kept in place
G# A#m C#
I am a tree reaching for the sun
D# G# A#m C#
Please don't hold me down
D#
Please don't hold me down
you might know it its the song on the audi add on TV RELEASE ME
Just remove the #s
G# becomes G
A#m becomes Am
etc.
Couldn't be easier :lol:
Just remove the #s
G# becomes G
A#m becomes Am
etc.
Couldn't be easier :lol:
no you cant get any easier can how do you think i feel now :oops:
thanks though
as a matter of interest is it in g# key
Yes - that's G#. But it would be much more likely to be written in the equivalent and identical sounding key of Ab.
The key of G# has 8 sharps (including F double sharp) so in modern notation it doesn't have a valid key signature.
Ab on the other hand, has only 4 flats, which is much more sensible.
I actually suspect that it's played in A with the guitars tuned down a semitone.
For some reason, tuning down a semitone is very common in some circles. Tuning up is much less common.
G# A#m G#
I am the wilderness locked in a cage
G# A#m G#
I am a growing a force you kept in place
G# A#m C#
I am a tree reaching for the sun
D# G# A#m C#
Please don't hold me down
D#
Please don't hold me down
becomes:
A Bm A
I am the wilderness locked in a cage
A Bm A
I am a growing a force you kept in place
A Bm D
I am a tree reaching for the sun
E A Bm D
Please don't hold me down
E
Please don't hold me down
--
Helgi Briem
hbriem AT gmail DOT com
Here you go have a listen to it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjQXMZe2ouk see what you think
