Do leads affect tone??

Does Monster say what's in their plugs? Nope. Does Neutrik? Nope. Switchcraft? Nope. Sure, they'll say their plugs are gold plated or whatever, but plating only helps keep plugs free from oxidation but does nothing for overall conductivity.

Never underestimate the value of being corrosion-free. It's a much more important factor than conductivity differences in the core material. However, gold is not the only way to resist oxidation. Even nickel plating goes a long way toward this.
The signal may travel fine through the actual copper cable of a $90 Monster cable, but then it hits the crappy alloy plugs and is compromised and degraded.

G&H, a small American plug company, is the only company I know of that has a copper core in their plugs.

Do I work for G&H? Hardly. Do I use G&H plugs on all my homemade cables? You bet. Best kept secret of the best guitar cables.

I'm not a cork sniffer when it comes to guitar cables, but I can hear the difference G&H plugs make, especially on a 10 or 12 foot cable.

A few of the smaller companies are wising up and using G&H plugs. Death Valley Cable Company and Lava Cables to name two.

But I can still make my own cables for cheaper -- not much cheaper -- but these days every dollar counts.

Copper is too maleable to be a core connector structural material. Silver is too expensive. That's why brass often becomes the choice. Years ago Whirlwind made solid brass, soldered plugs. One problem: without the anticorrosion plating (as they originally made them), they oxidized. Once again: A little nickel goes a long way.

I doubt whether the rather large cross-sectional area of that "crappy alloy" has a higher -- or even a significantly fractional -- resistance than that of 10 or 20 feet of oxygen-free copper center conducter @ 18 gauge (or whatever it is). The connection to the "crappy alloy" would be the weakest point -- anything not gas-tight would deteriorate. Capacitance would be far more sonically significant in a high impedance system. Damping factor (due to inductance and resistance) should be trivially insignificant given 3k to 10 k ohm source (guitar) and 1 Mohm load (amp). What exactly do you believe you are hearing as an improvement, and using what type of equipment (guitar, amp, brand/model of cabling such as Beldon xyz)?

Hi there:

You have some interesting points, but I think we will have to agree to disagree on some of them.

>>>>free. It's a much more important factor than conductivity
>>>>differences in the core material. However, gold is not the
>>>>only way to resist oxidation. Even nickel plating goes a long way toward this.

Absolutely. Plating makes a big difference. G&H plugs come in nickel-plated also. But, if the plug is corrosion free, the copper core is going to conduct the signal better than a cheap alloy. Plating does not actually conduct the signal. The body of the plug does.

>>>>Copper is too maleable to be a core connector structural material.

Well, G&H cores are solid copper, no two ways about it. In fact, G&H openly advertises the benefits of the malaeable core. If you step on the plug, just bend it back into shape. They explain this in depth in their literature and on their web site. Can't bend a cheapy alloy plug. It just snaps.

BTW, I don't have anything to do with G&H plugs. I just use them. I just wanted to mention that there is another plug out there besides the ones mentioned.

>>>>>Silver is too expensive. That's why brass often becomes the choice.

I agree absolutely about the silver. Plus, I have tried pure silver cables and I can't tell the difference. But brass is a ++POOR++ choice for plugs. It has only 20 % to 25% of copper's conductivity, which I think is a siginifcant signal loss.

http://www.bocchtech.com/bocchinoaudio/filosofi.htm

In fact aluminum is better:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_is_brass_the_best_conductor_of_electricity

But all this is besides the point. Copper is the best conductor besides silver, period, end of story. Only one plug has a pure copper core -- G&H. G&H uses copper because it is the best conductor. Zaollo thinks enough of G&H plugs to use them on their $155 silver cables.

Why do the other cable manufacturers use cheap alloy for their plugs? Purely economic reasons, i.e., it''s cheaper. It certainly isn't to make a better plug because a better plug would have a pure copper core. There is no alloy on earth that is a better conductor than copper (besides too-expensive silver as we mentioned).

I should also point out that these G&H plugs aren't $8,000 a piece. In many cases they are cheaper than Neutriks, amphenols and the others. And are better made. They have a very informative chart on their web site comparing plug features.

I have not measured the resistance of various plugs. I only have a cheap multimeter, but I plan to get a hold of one that measures capacitance one of these days and test some plugs.

Even if the difference between pure copper and the cheap alloys in Monsters is minimal, why not go for it? Minimally better is still better. Why intentionally use an inferior material? Copper is the best, why not use it?

>>>>>>What exactly do you believe you are hearing as an improvement,
>>>>>>>>and using what type of equipment (guitar, amp, brand/model of
>>>>>>>>cabling such as Beldon xyz)?

I am using CBI 20 AWG custom cable with all the good stuff (stranded copper, anti nicrophonic layer, etc.), A GREAT deal from zzounds for 500 feet for $130 BTW. One of the sound characteristics I notice when I put my cables up against other brands is a high fidelity I find absent in most other cables. From a full low-end that's not muddy to transparent highs without false brightness. The sound from the guitar pickup now sounds in some ways like a good acoustic microphone.

Thanks for taking the time to discuss my posting. I hope that this discussion will make readers think about their cable choices and hopefully make a more informed choice. Please don't take any of my comments as personal. Your questions REALLY made me think about my points and that's great. You really know your stuff. Thanks again for commenting.

It's really an interesting topic - depending on weather or not you hear a difference. For me I'll get my pick-ups / amps / guitars sounding right before I'll even contemplate $60 AUD cables!!!

Now we're also getting a 'workshop' from said band member on rolling cables. Maintains that if you roll them the same way they'll deteriorate & only last a year or so... I then pointed out my 15yr old cables are just as good as they've ever been & the get tramped on, coiled & abused. Who's got an opinion on this one?

I've heard that, too. Only problem I've encountered with rolling them like that is a tendency to twist, kink and knot after doing them the same way a while.

Hi there:>>>>Copper is too maleable to be a core connector structural material.

Well, G&H cores are solid copper, no two ways about it. In fact, G&H openly advertises the benefits of the malaeable core. If you step on the plug, just bend it back into shape. They explain this in depth in their literature and on their web site. Can't bend a cheapy alloy plug. It just snaps.

As I would expect. But brass (a good core material) rarely snaps off, as it's tough stuff. However, it's well known among those who design connectors and use connectors in products, that connectors which can be easily bent, chipped or deformed in any way tend to propagate damage to mating connectors: it's quite literally an STD. A bendable copper connector would have this problem.

I agree absolutely about the silver. Plus, I have tried pure silver cables and I can't tell the difference. But brass is a ++POOR++ choice for plugs. It has only 20 % to 25% of copper's conductivity, which I think is a siginifcant signal loss.

http://www.bocchtech.com/bocchinoaudio/filosofi.htm

It's not a significant loss in this type of electrical system. Moreover, the conductivity is only part of the story. In order to get an absolute resisitance one must factor in the conducting area, length of conductor and contact resistance. In the end, the resistance in the connector body is still far less than that of the 20 AWG copper @ ten + feet.

So I don't see an issue with brass connector body resistance (roughly = length/(cross-sectional area * conductivity), or its strength. But I do have a problem with copper's mechanical properties. I suspect we will simply disagree.
In fact aluminum is better:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_is_brass_the_best_conductor_of_electricity

Aluminum oxide is not conductive. Aluminum requires special treatments and highly reliable gas tight connecting systems. This is why Aluminum is no longer used as house wiring in most places. Improper installation (very common) led to oxidation at connections which increased resistance, leading to hot spots in high currents situations, sometimes leading to fires. In a guitar cable, the failure wouldn't be so drastic, but it would screw up the signal by severely changing the connection integrity.

I'm a newbie here, but feel free to shoot me down if I deserve it.

Welcome Loud,

I don't want to shoot you down but agree with you :D . I think the reason is probably money. Copper is a commodity and a valuable one at that. You've heard of people stealing the copper plumbing in a building under construction, no? Check this out: http://www.coinflation.com/ A 95% copper penny as metal is worth more than twice its face value. Manufacturers, especially ones in the low price market, have to cut costs everywhere, and in manufacturing, it's almost always in material and labor. Why Monster et al as "premium" brands do not continue this into their plugs is beyond me. They could easily increase the sales price to compensate but apparently choose not to. Same with George L who doesn't offer more expensive copper plugs (that I know of) but they do offer brass, which I think is even worse.

One thing I considered when reading your comment is ask yourself is it common to see a copper jack on a guitar, amp or pedal? Does it get that much better if you use copper plugs? Does the copper plug advantage disappear as soon as it enters a non copper connection or is it cumulative?

Peace,
Jicky

PS KILL THE PENNY!!!!(or maybe I should buy 1000 bucks' worth and melt them down :wink: .

Now we're also getting a 'workshop' from said band member on rolling cables. Maintains that if you roll them the same way they'll deteriorate & only last a year or so... I then pointed out my 15yr old cables are just as good as they've ever been & the get tramped on, coiled & abused. Who's got an opinion on this one?

Pretty much every pro stagehand and sound guy* I've worked with coils cables the same way.
A flat coil that is perfectly sized to sit flat in a milk crate. When unrolled from that state, they will sit flat on the stage (cables that won't sit flat on the stage=tripping hazard=bad).

*Most of them will throw a wrench at you if they see you trying the "thumb and elbow" method of coiling cables. It puts kinks in the cable (see tripping hazard), and strains the join to the connector.

One thing I considered when reading your comment is ask yourself is it common to see a copper jack on a guitar, amp or pedal? Does it get that much better if you use copper plugs? Does the copper plug advantage disappear as soon as it enters a non copper connection or is it cumulative?

Resistance is linearly culumative -- conductivity and resistivity are not. Sounds like a fine disinction, but has to do with what each of these really means. Resistance is in ohms and dimensionally additive in series connections: such as cables, connectors. Resistance is black-box number that says, "If one connects a voltage across the terminals of this thing, the current flowing through it will be equal to the V/R." It's that simple for DC and low frequency AC (e.g., audio). Conductance is another term that people often mistakenly use for conductivity. In reality, conductance is 1/resistance and has units of siemans = mho (due to some early scientist's nerd sense of humor, where mho = 1/ohm ), and is useful is doing analyses and cascade calculations in parallel circuit connections -- we aren't talking about that here.

Conductivity and resistivity are ways of describing electrical properties of bulk materials. And while we usually see single dimension numbers for this, that's really a reduction from more complicated 3x3 matrix that characterizes the material in each of three orthogonal dimensions (marketing guys simplify everything). But we can go for the simple versions: Resitivity is in ohm*meter and conductivity is in sieman/m (alternatively mho/m :wink: ).

Asleep yet? No. Okay so we can take the marketing claim of superior conductivity of a material and convert it a useful, real-use resitance by measuring the material's dimensions carefully, choosing the connection points, and then using calculus and the conductivity to pop out the resistance. Do that for all the electrically significant parts in the signal chain (fancy words for guitar cable). We now have a set of resistances for the components. Last thing we need is the interface resistances between components: solder connection, screw connections ... **

Adding the contibutions from the component parts and their series connections of jack-plug-cable-plug-jack***:


0.05 ohm - Jack
0.80 ohm - Jack/Plug contact
0.02 ohm - Plug
0.05 ohm - Plug/Cable connecton (soldered)
0.20 ohm - Cable (6 m, 20 AWG)
0.05 ohm - Cable/Plug connection (soldered)
0.02 ohm - Plug
0.80 ohm - Plug/Jack contact
0.05 ohm - Jack

2.04 ohm - Total


Anyone spot the real issue in the above? It's the plug-jack contact resistance, which I've been somewhat easy on. New clean connectors might be 0.05 ohm, but worn, dirty and deformed connectors can easily go to several ohms. Hearing noise when you jiggle that plugs? That's a marginal connection. The only reason it works so well if left alone, it the source resistance of a pup is several thousand ohms and and load resistance of the amp is 500 thousand to 1 millon ohms. So go ahead and lower the plug body conductance by a third, raising the resistance by a factor of 3. Now my fabricated model goes to 2.12 ohms. That's a whooping 4% increase in the total. The effect on the real guitar/amp voltage transfer and EQ is a factor of several thousands lower. So, I'm gonna worry about other things ...

So here are the real issues with cables (not in order of importance):

1. Capacitance per length => frequency response
2. Interface connections at solder/screw and plug/jack contact points -- includes plating => noise and reliability
3. Shielding integrity => interference noise, microphonics
4. Mechanical integrity (everything, connectors, connections, cable conductors, shield, jacket)
5. microphonics -- usually due to choice of dielectric, shield weave and cable overall structural design.

In a system with so many other dominating factors, plus the high impedance nature of the source (pups) and load (amp), plug body conductivity is "in the noise."

** Nobody but the borderline insane, engineering students who are forced and educators with no lives actually would do this. Professionals do rough calculations, build a prototype and characterize that on a $20,000 piece of precision test equipment with a cool (to some) color LCD readout.

*** Disclaimer: Okay ... I made up many of the numbers from experience, but they are not unreasonable, and will give an idea of the magnitudes. I looked up 20 AWG stranded copper to calculate a typical value for 6 meters (~20 ft).

gnease, thanks for the lesson. I'm figuratively slapping my forehead for knowing so little about electronics when they in essence are very important in the details of my main hobby, electric instruments :D .

Are you an EE or have a degree? I have thought about taking some night courses in EE at our local vocational school. Ya think it might be worth it? The classes are not too expensive and I'm not looking for a degree as my "real" job requires no knowledge in this area. I've also wanted to perform some mods or build a custom pedal or two where the aforementioned EE knowledge would be extremely helpful. Up until now, I've only relied on results rather than the particulars, when an undesired results end in a net loss for me only if it's return shipping. Plus it would be cool to see parameters on an expensive tester with an LCD readout :D .

Thanks a lot for your input.

Peace,
Jicky

Now we're also getting a 'workshop' from said band member on rolling cables. Maintains that if you roll them the same way they'll deteriorate & only last a year or so... I then pointed out my 15yr old cables are just as good as they've ever been & the get tramped on, coiled & abused. Who's got an opinion on this one?

I do! it is amazing to think back on my three years as a backline/audio tech (hey, I was a peon but it makes me feel more importanter) and how many times I tried to show very experienced folks that they are twisting the cable when they do the thumb/elbow method. Heck, my Dad taught me this when I was about six and winding up a water hose. No twists or kinks, and definitely a time saver when compared to the time wasted straightening them out :) .

The two longest cables I use are never a problem and although the cloth braiding helps with snarls, the right way to wind the cables has these both at 8 years and counting with nary a problem.

Ever been to a show late enough that you can see the roadies wrapping thumb/elbow method? Makes me want to educate them but I guess it's their stuff (so to speak). Maybe (and no disrespect to roadies, I've been one) it makes them feel like they are being helpful when they recommend new cables. But if their employer tripped on a random cable twist while on stage, who do you think they'd blame?

Peace,
Jick

>>>>>>>Resistance is linearly culumative -- conductivity and resistivity are not.
>>>>>>>Sounds like a fine disinction, but has to do with what each
>>>>>>>>>of these really means. Resistance is in ohms
>>>>>>>>>>>>.and dimensionally additive SNIP

You really bring up an important point. How many of us at one time or another have left that balky, crackly guitar jack alone, saying it will last one more gig, not wanting to take the guitar apart to fix it? You're right; there's the point where the most signal loss will occur. Best to bite the bullet and fix that connection.

>>>>>>>>>>So here are the real issues with cables (not in order of importance):

An excellent list! A subset to this list is: Use the shortest cable you can. Live, you're pretty much stuck with what length gets the job done. If you're jumping around the stage, a six-foot cable will not do. But the studio is a different story. The shorter the cable the better. What a difference in sound between a 20-foot cable and an eight-foot one!

I always loved the distortion the Beatles used on the song Revolution. Fantastic. :twisted:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gf-Q2rDd6Tw

I read an article that said John Lennon ran his guitar straight into the mixing board in the studio and simply turned up the gain on that channel to where the guitar distorted. So how in the world could you get that tone at home?

Well, I started with (and still have) an old JVC two channel cassette recorder.... not really like a
plug in and record type thing, more like a mix down deck.... ya know?

I did the same thing when I got my porta-one 19 yrs ago (I still have it!!!) but it was a panasonic at my folks' house and I fed it from the headphone jack into the porta-one. I though it was awesome but learned to like nuance better than pure onslaught. I wish I still had that thing, it would be awesome to use on a lead or otherwise in your face guitar part.

And to wes, I think the preamps in whatever board John L played into were probably pretty damn good. I read an interesting book by Geoffrey Emerick (sp?) that has some in-depth stuff about the Beatles pushing equipment beyond its intended limits...I think many of their on-the-fly experiments are now sold as pedals :D

Peace,
Jick

You really bring up an important point. How many of us at one time or another have left that balky, crackly guitar jack alone, saying it will last one more gig, not wanting to take the guitar apart to fix it? You're right; there's the point where the most signal loss will occur. Best to bite the bullet and fix that connection.

I totally concur. I had a 1974 guitar that I didn't hardly touch until I replaced the input jack and had a dude resolder all the wires to and from pots and pups (Roger Benedict RIP). Another fun thing is I had him switch the volume pots so the bridge is on top. It's now my absolute favorite.

I guess I'm the only one posting so I can admit that I like the song "Dancing With Myself" by Billy Idol :shock:

Peace,
Jick

And to wes, I think the preamps in whatever board John L played into were probably pretty darn good. I read an interesting book by Geoffrey Emerick (sp?) that has some in-depth stuff about the Beatles pushing equipment beyond its intended limits...I think many of their on-the-fly experiments are now sold as pedals :D

Peace,
Jick

It's easy to forget: That long ago, the mixing console was undoubtedly all tube. That might explain why overdriving would sound cool. If you want to find similar designs like in new equipment today, Joe Meek (the company) might be the place to start -- Joe Meek's (the person) story was interesting and tragic.

It's easy to forget: That long ago, the mixing console was undoubtedly all tube. That might explain why overdriving would sound cool. If you want to find similar designs like in new equipment today, Joe Meek (the company) might be the place to start -- Joe Meek's (the person) story was interesting and tragic.

I'm somewhat familiar with Joe's strange (and tragic, no matter how you look at it) ending (just from reading) and also have a J45 "Meekrophone" and it's accompanying Meek preamp and "Meekqualizer". I don't know if the Meek company is true to Joe's innovation but the chain I just described (I think it was marketed as the Trak Pak) is incredible for using right in front of an acoustic and is actually pretty good as a bass DI. Too bad this guy had some personal demons :(

As far as tubes being a component of the JL direct to the board sound, I can crank the input or use a boost pedal on a mackie and you'd hardly tell the difference if was a Studer. I think it's in how you control eq and volume because most of it is noise anyway, I guess I could be wrong as my unspoken personal creed was "the louder the better" for a longer than I'd care to remember so my ears aren't that great.

Just because we're talking about John L (and my favorite Beatle George) you all should check out Cotton Mather's "Camp Hill Rail Operator". It's like a new Beatles (well not that new) George song with John singing.

Peaces,
Jick