I have not been this fried out in a long time. Maybe since I started guitar in April '02. I've been playing in a band now for 9 months and it's been wonderful. The 4 of us would learn stuff at a reasonable pace and be ready for the next practice. We added another guitarist in July who's played for 25 years and he's competent and smart. He is finally comfortable with us and is starting to bring songs in.
Before Bill got in the band, the other 3 guys would say, “Let's try to work on X†and I'd get the lyrics and possible chords typed up. I'd print the stuff and we'd work on it. (The rest of the guys don't really type so I take on that responsibility). So I'd be the guy to do that job and it has always helped me learn songs better.
A couple of weeks ago Bill burned us each a cd with 9 songs on it. He said he'd like to work on the. I listened to them at work over and over to get an understanding of them. The rest of the guys (I don't think) bothered to listen. Oh well.
So the next week Bill comes in with 9 sheets of paper with the song words and chords he got from the Internet. The typing was small and it's obvious he just cut and past. He said he didn't believe/like many of the chords. Okay, so we all want home from that practice with the possibility of having to learn those songs. Nobody stepped up and verified the chords or arrangement, which the bandleader should have done. The following practice Bill's trying to teach us two of the songs and it was just hard to follow.
So it's hit-or-miss what we may or may not try to play at band practice. I spend my time working on songs that are suggested by the bassist and leader because I know we'll likely try to learn those songs.
Also, in addition, I go over to my best friend's place on Wednesday and Saturday each week to work on stuff he and I want to work on. It's been punk for the past few months, which is good because it's totally different from the band songs. But John suggests a song and we'll work on it. We work on if for a couple of hours twice that week and get a decent version down. We practice it again the next week and start another song even though he tells me he didn't get much time to practice.
We've practiced/played many songs over the many months but never really seem to go back and do the refresher enough. You know, like playing through maybe 10 songs we've learned in a row just to see if we still have them down. And then when he says he can't remember a song (because he hasn't practiced) I get frustrated (not visibly but in my mind) because we should not move on to other songs until we got the current one down. Further, I want us to do just that AND set aside an hour a week to go over songs we already know.
To get things crazier, I think about songs on my own. I wanted to learn 3 Dog Night's “Shambala†and “Spain†on my own. I don't think John or the band will want to play either but I like ‘em so I'm going to learn them. I also have maybe another 10-15 songs I have on the back burner because I just have not practiced them enough and I don't think anyone but me will want to play them.
Now are you wondering where I'm going with all of this? I am too. Kinda venting. Last night I could not bring myself to even play guitar until late in the night. I was so overwhelmed at, “What should I even practice tonight? Band songs that may or may not be played? Songs John and I work on? Or my own stuff on the back burner?†I literally sat on the couch for hours watching TV still wondering what I should do. I got almost nothing accomplished last night and I'm afraid I won't get much done tonight. I really have myself to blame for playing with others 3 nights a week. I can accept that.
But, for now, I'm just drowning in songs-to-be-learned by the band, John and I, and my own stuff. So:
1. Have any of you ever felt that way?
2. What do you do to organize the chaos?
3. Do you take days off of playing/practicing?
:evil:
"Nothing...can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts."
go solo........ :wink:
Sounds to me like one of you needs to take control of the situation and lead the rest of you. As for the other band members "not bothering" to read / listen to the guys CD - you have to find out why. Is it beacuse they resent his presence in the band? Do they just not dig the songs?
Take a break from the practicing, go for a beer, sort it.
Good luck!
Matt
Wow - that was some post!
For a start, don't blame yourself 'for playing with others 3 nights a week'. Playing with others is what it's all about! If they were really organised, and everything was going swimmingly - 3 nights wouldn't seem like many.
>>>1. Have any of you ever felt that way?
Well, yes and no. Yes, at times I have had so much stuff to learn for other people, that it never seems to stop, and I never get time for my own stuff. No, because when that happens I tend not to worry about my stuff for a while. The difference is, for you - the others may not have learned it, which sucks.
>>>2. What do you do to organize the chaos?
Well, in my case I have been lucky. The woman that leads the band I'm in currently is VERY organised, and the band I was in before - I was leading, so I made sure the others did their practice!!! In your case, the only real way around it I can see is to learn all the songs for your band and your mate, and then if you know it and they don't - it's not your problem! I agree with Matt - if I was you, I would make an effort to take a little control. I don't know your situation within your band, but maybe say - 'right, what songs are we practicing this week?' Then if next week, they haven't learned them you can complain - 'well, I could've been playing my own stuff...' Hopefully that will make them take it a bit more seriously.
>>>3. Do you take days off of playing/practicing?
For me, that should read 'Do you take days off from NOT playing/practicing?'!!! I'm just shocking, really. I did actually do some practice about two weeks ago (when I was thrown a wad of 14 songs by my band leader!), but otherwise I can rarely be bothered to learn new stuff for myself. I spend a lot of time (attempting) to write songs, but rarely do anything to improve my guitar playing. I'm not suggesting that is in any way a good thing, for the record, just the way it is.
Well - I have a feeling this post will have helped you exactly 0%, but there it is!
G
Listen Louder Than You Play
Sounds like your leader is not leading. Someone needs to set the agenda for the practice, so you'll all be on the same page. I once had to learn 5 new songs in a week. It seemed overwhelming but I got it done. It always helps to know what, when and where you have to perform. I'd have a talk with your band mates about getting more organized.
Tim Madsen
Nobody cares how much you know,
until they know how much you care.
"What you keep to yourself you lose, what you give away you keep forever." -Axel Munthe
Sounds like a bit of a conflict of interest there... maybe some miscommunication from the get-go.
Dennis, I've seen your playbook. It's a decent start, and you guys have enough material to do some single shows. But if Bill either took something the wrong way, or something was stated wrong on your side - maybe he's thinking you want to be the house band at a club, or do some other multi-night engagements along those lines. If that's the case, you'll need another 50-100 tunes, and he wants to get there and start getting paid.
I've been in situations where a band said that's the kind of work they wanted, but then I find they only learn a tune a month. In those situations, I've acted just like Bill (except for the part about showing up with tunes that 'might not be right')
A band is a partnership. Very few are equal partner arrangements, at least in terms of the interpersonal stuff. Somebody takes the lead. Bill might see the band as having no musical leadership, and he's trying to provide it.
So... I'd get together with the other 2 original members, and talk honestly about the following:
1. Did you give Bill the impression, explicit or implied, that you wanted to add a bunch of material in a hurry?
2. Did you all agree to add the tunes? (There's nothing wrong with saying no to a tune upfront)
3. If you gave him the impression that this is how you want to work, and he's following your direction, are you each willing to deliver the goods that you said you would?
4. If Bill is going off on a tangent, do you collectively think it's a good idea, or will the addition of so much material make your live performances worse for lack of knowing the changes?
5. If it's a tangent, and you decide it's not a good idea, you all need to meet with him. Decide who's going to take the lead on your side of that discussion.
If you guys have different agendas, someone has to either change or leave. There's no other way that one side or the other won't be unhappy, and eventually both sides be unhappy as a result.
As far as your specific questions go:
1. yeah, I've felt that way. I've been booked for a party, then handed an expected playlist by the host containing forty tunes... of which I knew ONE... with two or three days to showtime. What you do is negotiate. If he wants to do such-and-such a tune, think of others by the same artist that are easier. You'll get a similar music mix, and maybe both of you will be happy.
2. if you feel you need to learn all the tunes, organizing the chaos is looking for similar things to work on. Learn all the songs that are in one key first, or all the tunes in similar style. Do NOT work on all the new tunes in the same day! Maybe you do something like this:
Sunday - work on tune #1 in the morning. work on tune #2 in the afternoon, and finish the afternoon practice with a quick run through tune 1 again.
Monday - run through both tunes right off. Jot down what needs work, then work on tune #3. In the afternoon, work on the rough stuff from 1 & 2, then run through 3 to end the practice
Tuesday - work on tune #4. In a second practice, play through all four, and note the rough spots
etc.
The key is to be playing every tune every day until you know it, but only work on learning one at a time, if that makes sense.
3. yes, but very rarely, and I try to do it for the right reasons. Feeling overwhelmed isn't one of them... you'll only slip back farther by not practicing.
The other thing you might want to do is spend some time working on ear training. Play with everything - CDs, the radio, the TV. Hear the riff, play it wrong. Figure out what's wrong. Play it again less wrong. Repeat the process. Whoops - the next song is on now... start over with that one.
You've seen how quickly I can pick up a tune, Dennis - don't write that off as natural abilityand decide you'll never be able to do it. I can pick up a tune on one or two listens because I spent a lot of time doing what I just described, and I still do it.
By the way, my schedule is light next week, then it gets crazy through early January. If you want to come over once or twice, we can work through your new tunes together.
Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL
Holy cow, Dennis! And I thought I was overwhelmed having to learn my eight new pieces for the church Guitar Choir I'm joining! That kind of puts things in perspective.
Anyhow, good luck with it all. I don't have any suggestions excpet maybe for you to set priorities. What's most important for you now- the band, your partnership, or your solo stuff? Have you bitten off more than you can chew? Maybe put something on the back burner for a while?
I know- it's tempting to want to do it all. I say that not just from a music playing perspective but for life in general. We moved to a new town 2 years ago and got involved in all these things so we would not be bored and now we have too much to do. And now I want to learn the guitar as well- arrrgh! I realize we will have to give something up.
Regards,
Mike
"Growing Older But Not UP!"
After reading the responses I'm feeling a bit better. I suppose I'm just having a pity party for myself before I pick myself up and get to working hard on songs. Maybe I should have given a bit more background about the band. They've been together for 15 years or so. The drummer (Joe), bassist/singer (Jim) and guitar player/singer (Frank) that is. I joined in late February and the new guitarist (Bill) joined in July or August.
The original band members have practiced weekly for at least a decade. They've known one another for basically their whole lives. They've played out at bars and gigs but not often. I've seen the videos and they're pretty good. They didn't have kids back then. Now (of the 5 of us) Joe, Jim, and Bill are married with kids. Frank and I are not. Joe and Bill are wealthy so they don't seem to really want to play out. Jim has a nice house and he thinks of our practices as the “boy's-night-out†where anything can be played because it's just for fun. Frank lives in a nice house because the girlfriend makes good money. Otherwise, he makes his living playing solo in restaurants/bars and teaching guitar. He's fairly poor like me.
Frank and I are really the only ones who want to play out. He's more interested in the money. I'm more interested in the joy of it. Frank has always been the leader of the band. He's the oldest and has the most experience. He sings the majority of the songs and is the nucleus. At practice traditionally Frank would suggest playing a song or ask Jim (or Joe), “What do you want to play?†Joe usually doesn't suggest anything but Jim will say “Feeling' Alright†or some other song that really needs no work and is just a filler.
We have basically only an hour of real practicing each week. I drive the 32 miles to Frank's house to arrive at 7:30pm. Practice is supposed to be at 8pm. Bill, Jim, and Joe all come together. Jim says he can never get off his second job and eat before like 7pm. I used to car pool with Joe but I'd get there at 6:30 and he'd be eating dinner ½ hour later then drag his feet so we wouldn't get to practice until after 8pm. Now the guys have been showing up at 8:10-8:20pm. Jim just quickly tunes his bass (by ear) and grabs a cigarette. Bill sets up his gear and tunes. Joe is always ready to go because he has his second drum kit at Frank's house so he starts drumming right away to warm up.
I'm there early so I can set my gear up, tune, have a beer, and relax. I talk with Frank about questions/problems I have with the previous-week's songs and make notes. I'll pass out typed copies of songs we learned the previous week. By 8:30pm we're ready for the first song. At 9:25pm, Jim says this is the last song because we all know he wants to quit practice at 9:30pm. So we stop, Jim grabs his bass and bag and heads outside for another couple of cigarettes. I'll go out there and smoke and talk with him for a while. Bill, Frank and Joe get upstairs about 9:45 and we'll all talk for another 10 minutes. All in all, we start too late and end too early. It's frustrating to me. Then I go downstairs and pack up all my stuff and off for another 50-minute ride home.
:roll:
As far as learning so many songs at once, Frank and I totally agree that we are doing way too much at one time. That we need to play a few and get them down. Otherwise we learn a lot of songs at a low proficiency. The other thing that bothers me is that I take practice pretty seriously. I practice with them as if we had a gig tomorrow because I want to do well when the time comes. About a month ago Jim and Frank said I need to loosen up and “just have fun†and not worry so much about the music. I'm drinkin' beer but I'm concentrating on my playing. I have fun and smile when I hear things I like but I'm just trying to be ready to play. Maybe I should just drink a gallon of be and “just have fun.†Done that. But it makes for poor playing but lots more fun.
I think this post should be called “Listen to Dennis tell all….†I know that I really should just focus on playing/practicing the band songs first. If there's practice time left, work on songs John and I work on during the week. If there's time after that, go eat dinner and work on some personal favorites I'd like to learn. The reasoning?
I have enough stuff to do with the band and John that I'll work on my own stuff sparingly. I figure, also, I'd work on band stuff first. There are 4 other guys who should expect me to play well. If I suck, we'll sound bad collectively and I don't want that if we get a gig to pop up. If I mess up when playing with John (and I do often) we just laugh and start again. That doesn't go over well in the band situation.
I'm going to talk with Frank tonight about my whole beef with learning so many songs quickly at a marginal proficiency. Bill won't be at practice tonight so we'll be back to us four. I doubt we'll try any of Bill's new songs without him there. Likely we'll be doing a new Tom Petty one. I purposely brought (and left) my Tom Petty book with Frank so he could look it over for a possible new song. I did the same thing at my buddy John's house. I left my Neil Young book and he picked out Southern Man. Pretty funny.
I'll let you know how practice goes and how we may try to resolve the whole billion-song issue… :shock:
"Nothing...can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts."
I'll have to answer Yes to question one. The second question, I practice what I want, when I want. The question three is Yes and No. playing guitar is second nature, I've been playing for so long and sometimes at extended lengths of time I don't even think about it, I just play and try to think up different ways to different sounds and tones out of the equipment.
Playing like I do now is different from being a band member. A band manager will call and ask if your available for a venue and if your interested. If you tell them No they find another guitar and probably won't call you back. When you tell them yes you'll get a list of songs, CD and a date/time. Sometimes if your lucky you can even get a practice with the band in before hand. More times than not you don't. It may very well just be one time deal to fill in or an ace in the hole, in this case its a guitar in the hole you might say.
One band for example, I've done a couple shows with. The first time they sent me a song list with forty songs and I had less than thirty days. No sweat. I know I can play when called upon and so do they, thats why they called. A band on the other hand is a whole different thing. You all need to work together and be on the same wave length. Sometimes you just need to not think about anything or everything, just play, practice some more and play.
Here's a the list of songs they mailed me yesterday for playing the second weekend of Dec.. Its been at least four months since the last time we played together. I don't think even think about it, I'll practice and learn both the rhythm and lead parts and then add my own style to them. Think Positive of the thrill, the excitement, the fog, all the colored T cans, screaming fans and pretty girls. Ahh yes.
Guns N Roses - Paradise City
3 Days Grace - Just Like You
Fuel - Hemorage In My Hand
Ozzy_Mama I'm Comin Home
Jackyl_Down On Me
Def Leppard_Foolin
Alice In Chains - Man in the Box
Godsmack - Keep Away
AC/DC - Thunder Struck
AC/DC_Highway To Hell
Megadeth - Symphony Of Destruction
Buck Cherry - Lit Up
Joe
Wow Dennis.
I have learned that you have to have good discipline to have a good band. Rule #1 is everybody show up on time. If you start at 8:00 and end at 9:30, well, that's not a long practice. So EVERYONE should be there by at least 7:45 at the latest and be all set up, smoked up, drank up, and ready to play at 8:00.
If you have three 15 song sets, there is no way you are gonna play them in a hour and a half. I would run through Set 1 the first week, Set 2 the second week, and Set 3 the third week. Play just like at a gig. Let the drummer do his clicks and play the first song. If you play the song well, move on to the second song and so forth. If a song gives you or anyone problems, briefly discuss it and get that part straight. Then play the song again. If it comes out well move on. Sometimes you might have to play a song 3 times, very rarely 4 times. But stay right on business and move through your set. Now after 45 minutes or so, it is ok to take a 5 minute break. Have a smoke, crack a beer, go to the john, whatever. But then get right back to business.
Where people blow practices is by wasting time. You cannot talk between every song. You cannot have a smoke or a beer. With such limited time you must stay on track.
If you guys concentrate you should be able to crank out a set and have maybe 20 minutes left. This is the time to practice new material. If you have a simple song, try that first. You might get through it twice and sound pretty good. Move on. Now maybe you can spend the last 10 minutes practicing a difficult song. Maybe you'll get through it twice. Fine. Practice is over. As everybody packs up you can discuss problems with songs, or new songs to try next week. Now I would come back to those new songs next practice. After 3 or 4 practices they will be regular songs.
Then you can add maybe 2 or 3 new songs next practice.
Go through one set each practice, then play another set next practice. You will get weak on any set you do not practice regular.
Don't worry yourself into a tizzy if you do not play a song perfect at practice as long as you play it well. But take note of that song and practice it on your own during the week. Next week you will nail it.
As far as the others, you cannot control them. This is what bands are about. Most are like disfunctional families. Sometimes you luck up and find a bunch of guys that all show up on time and practice during the week.
Yeah right. :roll:
If you know something better than Rock and Roll, I'd like to hear it - Jerry Lee Lewis
Now that's what I wanted: the big dogs coming out and telling me how it is. I NEED that. I read both of you posts and I stored it in my shrinking brain. When I got to practice tonight, I talked to Frank about us being more focused about what songs we may practice tonight and some things I think we could work on.
Bill, the 3rd guitarist, wasn't there tonight so I knew I could play more pronounced and stronger. And, boy, I did. We really got through some songs tonight. And we had some focus. Even I suggested working on 3 songs (and that's not my deal. They were a band WAY before my amateur guitar playing).
To boot, the bassist didn't cut off at 9:30 but 9:40pm! We got 2 more songs in! We even revisited a song we have down really well but has not been practiced for months. My ears are still in shock now. We played as if we were live so that was rockin' out.
Funny, the drummer had to do some stuff on a computer of a band-member's wife. Still, the other guitarist played acoustic, I played (uh) electric, and the bassist played. We got through 2 songs before the drummer heard us and ran down the stairs because he heard us having some fun.
For now, I'll sign off and play a few more tunes. I got the opportunity tonight (with just me an one other guitarist) to add some fills and embellishments to songs and the other guitarist often looked up to me with a smile. Those moments made my night.
Okay, now I'll go try “one-two-three-four (cough) one-two-three-four…"
:)
"Nothing...can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts."
Dennis, if you're trying to do 9 new tunes, and you only practice for an hour or so a week, the new guitarist's expectations are way out of line.
I do two types of live performance work, band work and casuals. In a band, you're aiming for the best sound you can possibly get, and three new tunes at a one hour rehearsal is at least one too many. My trio rehearses 6 hours a week, and the most we've ever added in one week is 5.
In a casual, it's a different situation. We're not trying to blow the doors off the house, we're background music. We just need to give a fair rendition. In those gigs, everyone has sheet music, and everyone reads off it (and everyone CAN read off it in tempo). On the rare occasions where I've actually had a rehearsal for a casual gig, 9 tunes in an hour is about the max. A tune lasts 3-4 minutes, so you're talking about a half hour of music all by itself. When you're done with one run through, the leader will say 'let's go from the repeat to the beginning, so we do the bridge again'. Maybe somebody asks a question - "you mean we go back to the Bb there?" and the leader answers. We pick up our pencils and mark our scores. The leader knows we'll do it right, because we've all worked with him before (even if we have just met some/many of the other band members for the gig). We put our pencils down, pick up our axes again, and start the next tune. After 9 tunes, the hour's gone.
Although the level of musicianship is generally higher on casual gigs, the goal is different. In a casual gig, you're not looking to be 'asked back'. There's no 'back' to be asked to... how many 25th anniversary parties does one person host? How often does the politician run for office and have an election night gathering? (he doesn't book the band anyway - suck up to the campaign manager!) The goal is to not suck, so that the host won't say bad things about you.
The goal of a band is to get people to say good things about you. You're not doing casuals. Get down what you feel you can. To position yourself well in the politics of the situation, try to steer the band to doing the ones you've learned first, if that's possible. That wey, if they've done their homework on the same tunes, everything will gel... and if they've done other tunes (or none at all) you look like the workhorse of the act :)
Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL
In a casual, it's a different situation. We're not trying to blow the doors off the house, we're background music. We just need to give a fair rendition. In those gigs, everyone has sheet music, and everyone reads off it (and everyone CAN read off it in tempo). On the rare occasions where I've actually had a rehearsal for a casual gig, 9 tunes in an hour is about the max. A tune lasts 3-4 minutes, so you're talking about a half hour of music all by itself. When you're done with one run through, the leader will say 'let's go from the repeat to the beginning, so we do the bridge again'. Maybe somebody asks a question - "you mean we go back to the Bb there?" and the leader answers. We pick up our pencils and mark our scores. The leader knows we'll do it right, because we've all worked with him before (even if we have just met some/many of the other band members for the gig). We put our pencils down, pick up our axes again, and start the next tune. After 9 tunes, the hour's gone.
Uh ... I knew some sessions players. They did "casual" gigs. They couldn't read music, or at least they didn't use any sheet music.
They played Country & Western. They used a numbering system. Someone told me this was called The Nashville Number System.
I don't know what numbers meant what. They spat out their "codes"
very quickly and instanly had a set going!
I only seen these people do that. and I've never seen it or heard
of it since. The people that used this system were the Guitars, the Bass, The mandolin and the Steel guitar player.
I didn't stick around for the actual performance it was like a couple hours.
The drummer, Idon't know. He seemed to play the same rythym over and over and over and over..... and if they had a fiddle player, he wasn't there when I was there.
The actual performance was a few hours away (some benefit thing)
and I was just tagging along with a friend that was helping one of the guitarists with his stuff.
What I heard of them, They were in tune, and in sync, but the music was just flat out UNBEARABLE, So me and my friend bailed at the first opportunity :D
Anyways, do you know anything about this numbering system?
I asked my teacher at the time, but he was into progressive type music
and liked country a little less than I do.
To be honest, I do like SOME of it (must be a Texas thing) but
any info on this system would be helpful.
I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but when
you're a 22lb sledge, do you really have to be?
Nashville Numbering (or Charts):
http://www.jpfolks.com/ubb/Forum60/HTML/000002.html
http://www.jpfolks.com/ubb/Forum60/HTML/000003.html
http://www.jpfolks.com/ubb/Forum60/HTML/000004.html
or
-=tension & release=-
Dennis,
My head is spinning just reading the posts and all the stuff you have going on at once.
I can't offer you anything new as I went through the same thing only it was the stuff my teacher gave me, the stuff I was working on myself and the stuff I was trying to play with a couple of guys casually.
From what I know of you, your organizational skills are excellent and maybe you should take a more active role in at least running/organizing band practices.
Tom, Joe and Wes have all given you some good advice since they've lived all this before.
Anyway if you just cut back in a few areas I'll think it will all fall into to place. At least your able to do what you want and that's play with other people.
Chris
"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!
Back in the day, we had to know 60+ songs before you could even look for a gig, so you found ways to learn them quickly. In college, there were a few times where we'd learn 20-40 songs, and then the band would break up before any gigs. Frustrating, but we learned a lot of songs.
We rarely did complicated songs. Our lead guitarist was very good, so he could make the most from a 3-chord classic. Those few complex songs required more work (Crazy on You), but they were worth it.
One of the rules for learning a new song was that someone had to be prepared to lead the new song, and he had to bring accurate chord charts. No chart, no song.
Also, we almost always did a "dress rehearsal" playing the songs as if we were on stage, at least once before a gig.
We warmed up every rehearsal with a song that we knew well, just to keep it polished.
-Laz
