NO! If you are meant to play the off beat. Play the off beat at tempo. That means counting the 1 and 3. Do not dismiss them. If the intention is for you to learn to play a syncopated beat, you need to practice a syncopated beat not the beat at half tempo. Is there a difference? Yes. The difference is in perception and how it is applied when you play with other musicians. If they are playing a 120bpm beat and you are intended to play on the off beat, you can't just come in playing half tempo. If you haven't practiced it properly, you're likely to come in on the 1 and 3 only at half tempo. Well, that's pointless now isn't it? The point of the practice is to structure YOUR rhythm. The metronome could be at any tempo. YOU have to impose meter. A metronome can't do that. At least not without some sort of accent.
hi hueseph
when i play with metronome i tend to play at a quite confortable speed (120 bpm if I have to play rock, let's say 85 if i play slow songs), varying the speed to the exact speed of a song only if it's an easy one or after a few weeks of pratice. I used to to play with unaccented beats (so each click sounds equal to the other), more recently I play with beat 4 accented: this way I have a bit more reference.
Anyway I pose the question because I did not understand what meant to play with beats 2 and 4 only, givin the fact that I usually pratice metal riffs which are most often thnn not syncopated or involve chord anticipation
Well I have not understood it yet :-)!
Matteo
Matteo:
You don't play the beats but you have to "count" them. You don't have to count out loud though it might help. It's kind of a back to basics thing. You're playing one TWO three FOUR one TWO three FOUR. Counting is essential. Learn to do it now so you can forget it later.
Matteo:
You don't play the beats but you have to "count" them. You don't have to count out loud though it might help. It's kind of a back to basics thing. You're playing one TWO three FOUR one TWO three FOUR. Counting is essential. Learn to do it now so you can forget it later.
hi hueseph
i guess that's a misunderstanding. I can play with a good time and do not have any trouble playing the most common rhythms (syncopated or not) whether playing alongside a click or following a cd or also when I play with a real drummer. I can count in my mind and I use to tap my foot with the beat to keep rhythm every time I play, I can also play rhyhtms with my hand, learn to sing them and whatever.
So I guess I'm welle beyond the basics :-)!
having said so, given the fact that I believe that I still can improve a lot (i.e. playing very complex rhythms at higher speed, learn to play in uncommon time signature etc.), I'm always interested in new rhythmic excercises and so I was curios to know what meant playing on beats 2 and 4 only with a metronome, since I've always felt each clik as a beat (and still i'm!!!)
Does this mean that I have to ignore the cliks 1 and 3 and play like each 2nd click was the first one
Does this mean that I have to ignore the cliks 1 and 3 and play like each 2nd click was the first one
No it means you count the first and third beat and play the second and fourth beat as if they are the second and fourth. Remember that this is an excercise. It doesn't say anything about your ability. When you read a new chart, you have to be able to count it out otherwise you will never get the rhythm. It's basic yes but we NEVER stop using the basics.
Playing on the off beat might mean nothing when you practice but when you're with other musicians is when it counts. It's about the feel. A metronome cannot "play" odd meter (unless it has accents to define them) you have to impose the meter. A metronome at 120bpm is at the same tempo regarless of whether you want to play 4 over 4, 7 over 8 or 13 over 16. The meter and feel is in how you play against the tempo.
I'm a bit late to the game here, but back to the OP's question.
It's funny, but when the only tool you have is a hammer, you want to use it for every problem you face.
A metronome is a wonderful tool. But it isn't a panacea. Not every tempo problem can be fixed by simply using it to practice with.
If you just plain have trouble keeping to the same tempo at any time, then sure...a metronome can be a great use. But if you seem to do okay when you are at home, practicing or recording, etc. but then fall apart when playing with others, or in front of others, then you might need to look deeper.
I can think of a number of reasons:
People tend to slow down: (I say 'people' but I really mean, things *I* have done)
- when they face a difficult part of the music
- when they make a mistake
- when the song is already slow, and doesn't have 'energy'
- when concentration is lost
- when trying to queue their entrance based on another musician (almost always the entrance is late, slowing the piece down each time)
- If the piece is just plain too difficult
- nerves
People tend to speed up:
- when concentration is lost
- adrenalin
- nerves
And of course, there is simply not setting a proper tempo at the beginning.
Look at your playing, and try to answer these questions:
Is my problem with keeping a steady tempo, or with particular strumming/picking patterns
Where does my tempo go wrong? (always, in front of crowds, playing with others)
What is my main tendency (slow down, speed up) on a particular song (this can be different on each song you play...or general regardless of song)
What happens when there is a rhythm player (drum/bass)
What tempos do I have the hardest time sticking to? (many times it's possible to get grooved in on a single tempo, and gravitate toward it no matter what)
Can I tap my foot, and keep a tempo without playing?
What about strumming? Can I keep tempo strumming 'air guitar'...where my arm moves down each beat (in a 4/4 song)
So a structured method would involve:
1. Identify the root cause
2. Develop a plan to address the root causes
3. Carry out the plan
4. Periodically reasses and go back to #1
And (as always) your best bet is probably to find an experienced teacher that can watch and listen to your playing.
There are two kinds of people in this world:
Those who think there are two kinds of people in this world, and those who don't
People tend to slow down: (I say 'people' but I really mean, things *I* have done)
- when they face a difficult part of the music
-If the piece is just plain too difficult
-when concentration is lost
This is absolutely why you need to play with either a metronome or a midi drum pattern that you can slow down or speed up. There is no other remedy than to get the part right. If that means that you have to slow it down. Slow it down. When you have it perfect, then you can work your way back up to tempo.
Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against a band that plays with a bit of a "free" meter but if one band member is throwing off the other band members, that person needs practice.
When a band can speed up or slow down a bit as a group, I still consider that a tight band. Moreso even. When one person starts running ahead of the rhythm though, uh no. That is not acceptable.
It's funny, but when the only tool you have is a hammer, you want to use it for every problem you face.
No, but, if there is a nail sticking out of the floorboard, you better believe I will bring out a hammer.
Does this mean that I have to ignore the cliks 1 and 3 and play like each 2nd click was the first one
No it means you count the first and third beat and play the second and fourth beat as if they are the second and fourth. Remember that this is an excercise. It doesn't say anything about your ability. When you read a new chart, you have to be able to count it out otherwise you will never get the rhythm. It's basic yes but we NEVER stop using the basics.
Playing on the off beat might mean nothing when you practice but when you're with other musicians is when it counts. It's about the feel. A metronome cannot "play" odd meter (unless it has accents to define them) you have to impose the meter. A metronome at 120bpm is at the same tempo regarless of whether you want to play 4 over 4, 7 over 8 or 13 over 16. The meter and feel is in how you play against the tempo.
hi hueseph
i finally understood (sorry but I'm not english mother tongue:-)!) So in a nut the exercize is simply to play whatever you want (a single note, a duplet, a triplet, four sixteen notes) on beats 2 and 4, pausing on beat 1 and 3. It is interesting because several common patterns are just the contrary: i.e. playing two downstrokes on beat 1 and 3 and a pause on beat 2 and 4, creating an accent (it makes sense given the fact that drums usually accent those two beats)
Regarding the use of the metronome I agree: you must have the rhythm in your head before trying to play it on the metronome. Of course you could set the metronome to 3 beats or 5 beats or whatever (mine goes from 1 to 7) but before doing that you have to feel the rhythm in your head. regardiong myself, for sure i have to better the use of triplets with alternate picking because i tend to make mistakes if i go over 120 bpm (and can play triplets with downstrokes to no more than 100-105 bpm).
Matteo
Matteo
This is absolutely why you need to play with either a metronome or a midi drum pattern that you can slow down or speed up. There is no other remedy than to get the part right. If that means that you have to slow it down. Slow it down. When you have it perfect, then you can work your way back up to tempo.
Don't get me wrong. I have nothing against a band that plays with a bit of a "free" meter but if one band member is throwing off the other band members, that person needs practice.
When a band can speed up or slow down a bit as a group, I still consider that a tight band. Moreso even. When one person starts running ahead of the rhythm though, uh no. That is not acceptable.
It's funny, but when the only tool you have is a hammer, you want to use it for every problem you face.
No, but, if there is a nail sticking out of the floorboard, you better believe I will bring out a hammer.
The point I was trying to make is "why" it is happening. Yes...maybe a metronome will help, and often that is the the right answer. But if you are maintaining tempo in the practice room (with the metronome), but not with the group, or in a live performance, then there is likely something else going on (like losing concentration, nerves, or listening for another part making your part late). These things aren't as easily fixed by just saying 'use a metronome'.
It's like saying 'practice' when someone asks for help on a certain part, or technique. Well...yes, practice is important. But it is just as important to determine if the problem is unfamiliarity with the piece, a basic flaw in technique, or some other problem that is the limiting factor. Practicing a bad habit simply reinforces that bad habit. Playing a part with insane fingerings (when there is an easier option) slowly won't necessarily let you speed it up, simply because of the mechanics.
Before you break out the hammer, make sure it *is* a nail, and not a wood screw that is sticking up. :)
There are two kinds of people in this world:
Those who think there are two kinds of people in this world, and those who don't
Whatever. You're right. I'm wrong. I concede.
The proof is in the pudding as they say.
Nothing to fight about fellas! :D
Actually, you might have very good timing, perhaps it is the drummer who is slowing down or speeding up. Our old drummer used to speed up all the time, our current drummer likes to slow down. You would be surprised how common this is.
Truth is, we are human. Even the best band does does not play with perfect precision. The trick is to get in the groove. It is hard to explain, but every band knows when they are in the groove. The music has tremendous feeling and seems to almost take over. It is easy to play on time when this happens. But how do you get in the groove??
You have got to listen intently to the music, not just you, but the whole band. The band also has to pay careful attention to dynamics. During a verse you want to bring the music down so the singer can be heard. On a chorus or solo everybody picks it up a notch in intensity. You have to put feeling and dynamics into your playing. When everybody in the band does this you will be surprised how simple it is to play in time with each other. For a band to play well everyone must be unselfish and put the music ahead of individual solos. Nothing is worse that hearing some obnoxious lead guitarist play licks while the singer is trying to sing a verse.
You have to get so into the music that you can feel it in your body. You should move and dance to the music.
I know I've used this example many times, but watch Angus Young of AC/DC. Everybody thinks he is running and jumping around for show. Some of it is show, but the biggest reason he is running around is because he is absorbed in the music. His whole body is keeping time.
I know I always post this video, but it is awesome. Look how everybody, the audience and players are absorbed in the beat. This is how you keep good time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvoeeq-BH4w
Admit it, you can't help but groove to that song. :twisted:
If you know something better than Rock and Roll, I'd like to hear it - Jerry Lee Lewis
When a band can waiver in tempo together, I don't think that's a problem. There's a lot of classic tunes that slow down and speed up slightly. That's a groove. It can be irritating though if it's a noticeable increase or decrease in speed. Being able to cover it is one thing but if it becomes a distraction no-one(playing) is going to enjoy it.
As far as drummers with wandering rhythm: it's not uncommon to see a drummer using a click track. Especially where there are a lot of time signature/tempo changes. And, I am speaking of pros. You'll rarely see a jazz drummer with a click track but then again, Jazz musicians are from the planet Syncros-Harmonia.
By the way. AC/DC are probably the best live band ever IMHO. They sound every bit as good or better live than they do on vinyl. I can't stand Brian Johnson's voice but when they do their stuff live, their's no denying they rock....Still.
