Test II - Input please ....

I thought when you said 'muddy' it would be all distorted, but it was a really clean recording. Maybe you meant the mixing? If so, it sounded like the drums and two guitars were mixed monophonic so all the sound seemed to be coming from one virtual point between the two speakers. I don't know if your drum unit can output stereo, but if so, you could maybe use one of those 1/8" stereo cables from the unit to the line input in the computer. I think on the Collaboration thread you said you'd downloaded Audacity. If so and this is what you recorded on, then when you're laying down the stereo track, make sure Audacity is set to record two tracks at once. When you have those, and the two guitar parts, or bass or voice if you add them, mix the final array of tracks so instruments are a little off to the side in the sonic landscape so to speak; one guitar slightly left, one slighly right, and main solo instrument or voice either at 12 o'clock, or just a tiny bit to either side.

If by muddy, you also meant 'too much stuff going on' it might be this particular drum track, which was a bit busy. For the most part, a simple drum part sometimes works better, and gives room for the other instruments.

I couldn't tell what the pop sounds were. I could hear them, but it almost sounded to me like it was the guitar pick passing over certain strings without really sounding the string. Almost like when you're holding the pick there's very little pick exposed so the fingertips mute it even as it starts to sound. Could be wrong though, the pops weren't that loud actually, so I'm just guessing.

I'm not that familiar with the Guitartrainer so I don't know what sort of outputs it has, and I've never tried that drum program either so I don't know what its capabilities are so I can't really offer specific advice, but...it sounded really good for a first go at it, man - especially the soloing.

Thanks, I think you nailed it. By "muddy" I meant that everything seemed crunched together. So, that's what the "L" and "R" toggles are for on Audacity (yeah that's what I used -thanks to you and others helping me get started). I'll try moving things around some.

Yeah, the drams are a bit busy still. I actually toned them down a lot form where they started. I listed to it and decided a drummer would need about eight arms to pull off some of the stuff I had in there. I'll try toning it down some more.

The solo bit will go away. I want to record my son singing his song over the drums and rythm and then I'll put a little lead stuff on it. Should make a decent gift for Grandma.

Any other advice and tips are greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

edit - Oh, by the way. Also a good point about the two track recording. The drums came over as stereo, but I recorded the guitar tracks each with one track. I'll redo the guitar parts with two tracks for each. Then off-set all of the parts.

Another thing I did which I'm not sure is right is I made a .wave out of the drums and rythm and then started a new project and imported the drum/rythm .wave and added the next layer. Am I better off laying all of the tracks and then mixing before consolodating? Perhaps that was also part of my problem.

Also, If I understand correctly, a rule of thumb might be to keep the lead and vocals toward the center? And then drums and bass perhaps on either side of that?

Thanks again for your help. I'm having so much fun playing with my new toy that I kind of hate having to come into work. I look forward to going home so I can play some more!

Thanks, I think you nailed it. By "muddy" I meant that everything seemed crunched together. So, that's what the "L" and "R" toggles are for on Audacity (yeah that's what I used -thanks to you and others helping me get started). I'll try moving things around some.

Yes, on the Audacity, they're sliders L/R, and you can position them like if you sitting in front of a live band listening. Like for me, and it's just my own personal thing, I like having 'my' guitar parts, especially the leads, on the left as you're looking at it. I emphasize 'my' because I usually play all the parts. So it's...my 'guitarist persona.' lol

And live, I would always stand on the right side of the stage, facing the audience - being left-handed, it just felt more natural that way.
Yeah, the drams are a bit busy still. I actually toned them down a lot form where they started. I listed to it and decided a drummer would need about eight arms to pull off some of the stuff I had in there. I'll try toning it down some more.

The solo bit will go away. I want to record my son singing his song over the drums and rythm and then I'll put a little lead stuff on it. Should make a decent gift for Grandma.

Any other advice and tips are greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

That's the thing with programming drum tracks (and I've done it) - I ask myself "would a real guy really be able to play all that? Like keeping the ride going while doing a bunch of tom rolls or something. I mean, they 'could', but would it be natural for a drummer to do that. Especially with hi-hats doing 16th notes (like a disco thing), and then having a snare shot. There'd be a beat where the hi-hat wasn't going in order to play the snare - unless you're Terry Bozzio and have that extra half-closed hi-hat in your kit :)
edit - Oh, by the way. Also a good point about the two track recording. The drums came over as stereo, but I recorded the guitar tracks each with one track. I'll redo the guitar parts with two tracks for each. Then off-set all of the parts.

You could still have the guitar parts as one track each, just pan them.

And I've discovered that if you're importing a stereo track that already has things laid out in a 'stereo field' so that it already 'sounds' stereo, I have to pan those two tracks hard left and hard right in order to have it come out stereo and have that nice 'spread' to it. Then I can mix the other mono tracks in, panning them this way or that way, until they're separated. But not too much because then it would sound like maybe the rhythm guy is waaaaay over there on the left and the lead guy is waaaay over on the right. Too much spread in other words.
Another thing I did which I'm not sure is right is I made a .wave out of the drums and rythm and then started a new project and imported the drum/rythm .wave and added the next layer. Am I better off laying all of the tracks and then mixing before consolodating? Perhaps that was also part of my problem.

You could do it either way, it's just that when you consolodate (mix) that first bunch so you can import it, since they're now mixed with themselves, you lose the ability to move their parts around afterwards. Better would be to add tracks - of course if the software allows it - until you have the whole thing, and 'then' mix
Also, If I understand correctly, a rule of thumb might be to keep the lead and vocals toward the center? And then drums and bass perhaps on either side of that?

Usually you keep the main melody/vocal/solo toward the middle. For me, I usually offset it just a tad, like 11 o'clock, or 1 o'clock. I find that when mixing with a stereo reverb, having a sound source slightly off-center creates more of a lush, left/right movement. If it's dead-center, it sounds, well, just dead-center.

The drums, as mentioned before, can be panned L/R, but again, not too much. Like when you're listening as you're mixing, try to imagine a drum set sitting there facing you, and then listening to it with no mics or anything. Just acoustically. If you close your eyes, you'd hear the kick drum in the center, the high-hat right of center and the snare just slightly between the sound of the hats and the kick. Then mounted toms are usually high-to-low going right-to-left, so a roll would sound like it was just right of center, going to the left. The floor toms would be more toward the left, and the ride would be toward the left around where the floor toms are. Crashes would be left, right, center.

But if you spread it out in stereo too much, it sounds like he's got the drum kit spread out across the whole stage, lol. So you could mix drums like in more of a wide V shape - left track 10 o'clock, right track 2 o'clock. Sometimes I go 9 and 3 if there's nothing else going on.

Bass, I usually put toward the right, maybe in the 2 o'clock position, so he doesn't sound like he's playing from offstage or something.

Then if there's a lead vocal, I put it slightly off-center to one side, and to compliment it, if there's a lead guitar solo, I'll mix it to the other side slightly, to balance it out. Same as if it was a vocal duet
Thanks again for your help. I'm having so much fun playing with my new toy that I kind of hate having to come into work. I look forward to going home so I can play some more!

Yah I know, recording's waaay fun :)

I've listened to it a few times and it seems to me that all 'errors' are caused by the same problem: how to make a mix between a backing and solo track. You basically went for the more simple method by mixing it 'on' the backing track. The guitar track is fairly lowmid intensive so you need to push it's volume quite up to have it heared. The result is that the drums get pushed to the background and the guitar basically dictates the feel. And with such a lowmid guitartrack and without more present hi-hats and such the mix feels muddy.

An alternative would be to mix the guitar 'in' the backing, and that consists of two parts:

1) Stereo placement. The human ear absolutely requires to be able to hear unique positions for each sound to be able to properly seperate them in your head. This is called the cocktail-party effect: imagine standing in a large room with a hundred people talking. You could probably focus and concentrate on just one or two voices because each voice is coming from a slightly different angle. If they'd all be speaking from directly in front of you it be much harder to make any sense of it. As a basic guideline I use for myself I have the more permenant instruments in the center, whichever they are for a specific song. So a drum would be more centered then a guitar solo. Note that this also goes for the drum itself: you can slightly pan each part of the kit differently so it sounds like a real recorded drum.

2) EQ. Just like you have a stereo image in which every track needs it's own place so does every track need it's own place in the 'frequency image' If you have a bassdrum, two toms and some hi-hats you'll need to figure out which area is left for yoru guitar. The low range is filled with the bassdrum and bass guitar. The lowmids are usually for the toms. The highs are for the hihats. So that leaves you with the higer parts of the mids. So if you'd EQ your guitar in such a way that it's focus lies in the higher middle section you'll find it much easier to have both the drum and guitar track clearly apart without one overpowering the other and while keeping a balanced sound.

Just like you have a stereo image in which every track needs it's own place so does every track need it's own place in the 'frequency image'

Great stuff guys. Before I started doodling with this stuff, my preconception was that recording was basically left speaker and right speaker. Demo really helped me to start seeing linear seperation with his description comparing placement of band pieces. Arjen, you reinforced that with the "coctail party" effect. And then you hit me with the frequency seperation and I'm starting to visualize the mix more three-diminsional.

I'll play around with the frequencies of my mixes and see if I can't clear up some of the mud.

Not only has this been a lot of fun, but it has forced me to focus even more on my timing. I thought I was doing pretty well. I use a metronome regularly and nobody really cringes too much when I play live. But when I'm matching tracks, it really sticks out if one of the pieces is a little bit off in places.

I respect the work you guys have done, so it really means a lot for me to get your feedback. Hopefully future recording will show a marked improvement.

Voxengo makes a good (free) Spectrum Analyzer plug-in. It will help you see where you are in your mix. Apply it to a track that sounds muddy, too bright.....etc..... and you will be able see the frequency in which your track resides in live time.

Here is a pic with the SPAN (Spectrum Analyzer) on the master of a backing track in progress (drum and 2 bass). EQ's on each track as well.

As you can see from my 'bottom end' track, I have left some room for some mids and highs to live and play freely.

Also, if you want something to stick out in a mix, use a highpass filter to roll off some of the lows. If you want something to blend in a mix, use a lowpass filter to roll off some of the highs.

Way better on the second version!

I'm listening to "Never Looked Back" - cool.

And the kid's got a great gutar-face on!

Fun, ain't it? :)

Thanks for the ffedback and help. Yeah, the kid's a real ham. :D