how to get a good tone for a lead guitar on dynachord mixer

dear grey

i m a musician and been performing for quite sometime . i use to go on my ear when doin the sound . but never had the theoritical knwledge. i have explained earlier. that i never used to drive my amp full on various occasions but after studyin and m still studyin i got to knw what is actually happenin in the amps.

when i say i have done more then 100 shows i meant my band shows with sound (rental). yes when i say i practically put into practice what i have learnt. i mean .
now i have a better understanding when i m doing sound . only practical experience is not enough while doing sound . u have to learn what your doing

i started learnin sound as i needed to invest in my own gear. n ow i do sound rentals . i use EV speakers, Ev amps, Ev crossovers ,

maybe i m not good at verbally making you understand my point of view.

neways its good we have this forum and can learn a lot from each other.

this is how i use my amps:

if i use 800 watts speaker at 4 ohms and i m using using an amp which supports 800watss at 4 ohms . i drive the amps full

if i use 500 watts speaker at 4 ohms and i m using an amp which supports 800 watts at 4 ohms . in this case i cannot drive the amp full. i will make sure i drive the amp at around 500 watts or les

do u understand the diff between

linear scale and lograthmic scale?

i enjoy replyin on this forum as each time i read a msg i learn somethin knew.

its good to learn from one another . as i got a lot of doubts need to clear with you guys

my bandsetup is

i play as for my client requirments and budget

i perform one mand band, duo , trio , quartet, ( 5 or 6 piece live band)

i use midi sequences when i perform , one ,duo,trio

does any of u guys use midi?

i have explained earlier. that i never used to drive my amp full on various occasions but after studyin and m still studyin i got to knw what is actually happenin in the amps.
Can you please explain exactly what goes on in an amp that leads you to drive it fully?
do u understand the diff between linear scale and lograthmic scale?
Yes, I do.

do u understand when i say

sound is lograthimic and not linear

if so ps explain

I'll wait for your explanation of "what is actually happenin in the amps.". I've asked twice for it and you don't give me an answer.

if i use 800 watts speaker at 4 ohms and i m using using an amp which supports 800watss at 4 ohms . i drive the amps full

if i use 500 watts speaker at 4 ohms and i m using an amp which supports 800 watts at 4 ohms . in this case i cannot drive the amp full. i will make sure i drive the amp at around 500 watts or less

Shane

This doesn't make sense at all to me. Would you crank your 800w amp to max with your 800w speakers at a small club that only holds 50 people?

Using your method you would need to have different rated speakers and amps for every venue you play.

The rest of us just turn our amps down a little. :wink:

And no matter how you look at it you are going to have to turn something down. You turn down the Master on your mixer. You are turning the Input to your amp down. The amp has to work harder to produce the same volume.

Read this article from ProSoundWeb

Much confusion surrounds power amplifier controls.

First, let's establish that power amplifier "level/volume/gain" controls are input sensitivity controls. (no matter how they are calibrated.) They are not power controls. They have absolutely nothing to do with output power. They are sensitivity controls, i.e., these controls determine exactly what input level will cause the amplifier to produce full power. Or, if you prefer, they determine just how sensitive the amplifier is.

For example, they might be set such that an input level of +4 dBu causes full power, or such that an input level of +20 dBu causes full power, or whatever-input-level-your-system-may-require, causes full power.

They do NOT change the available output power. They only change the required input level to produce full output power.

Clearly understanding the above, makes setting these controls elementary. You want the maximum system signal to cause full power; therefore set the amplifier controls to give full power with your maximum input signal using the following procedure:

1. Turn the sensitivity controls all the way down (least sensitive; fully CCW; off).
2. Make sure the device driving the amp is delivering max (unclipped) signal.
3. Warn everyone you are about to make a LOT of noise!
4. Cover your ears and turn on the first power amplifier.
5. Slowly rotate the control until clipping just begins. Stop! This is the maximum possible power output using the maximum system input signal. In general, if there is never a bigger input signal, this setting guarantees the amplifier cannot clip. (Note: if this much power causes the loudspeaker to "bottom out," or distort in any manner, then you have a mismatch between your amplifier and your loudspeaker. Matching loudspeakers and amplifiers is another subject beyond this note.)
6. Repeat the above process for each power amplifier.
7. Turn the test signal off.

Here again a pro completely disagrees with your method.

Do you turn your car radio to max? Or do you put a low powered radio in your car so you can turn it to max without blowing your eardrums?

Do you turn your TV volume to max? Or do you install a low power amp in your TV so you can turn it to max and it not be too loud.

It's a free world, you can use your amp anyway you choose. But I have yet to see an article from a pro recommending your method. If you know of one, I would like to see it.

ok wes

before u compared a car speedometer to an amp control . they r totally diff scales. u cannot compare a car speedmeter to an amp . simply becoz a car speedmeter is driven on a linear scale and an amp is driven on a lograthmic scale . if u understand this clearly u would knw what i m saying.

a car speedometer doesnt work lograthmically as an amplifier. u have to thoroughly understand when i say sound is lograthmic.

please explain what u understand when i say sound is lograthmic.

no one has replied to me what do they understand when i say sound is lograthmic

i have got an idea to solve this issue

lets take a powered mixer . what is actually happenin with the amp inside the mixer. ?
will get an exact answer from my class on this.

dear grey,

i have already mentioned earlier what is happenin in the amps

to understand an amp how it works u have to knw what i mean when i say

in an amp the sound is lograthmic .

if u dont understand this term " lograthmic " u wouldnt understand the workin of an amp

as i said before i did not understand the term lograthmic. my teacher had to dig into my head and explain it to me..

Quote:

if i use 800 watts speaker at 4 ohms and i m using using an amp which supports 800watss at 4 ohms . i drive the amps full

if i use 500 watts speaker at 4 ohms and i m using an amp which supports 800 watts at 4 ohms . in this case i cannot drive the amp full. i will make sure i drive the amp at around 500 watts or less

in a linear scale as you go up the scale it doubles . for ex. in watts( 100.200.300.400.500.600.700.800.900.1000) but in the case of lograthmic scale it doesnt double

(100w............200w...............300w.....400w...500..600.700.8009001000) . this is it how it happen0s) it starts slowly and then at the end it increases very fast . so by reducing the db knb of he amp u reduced the input power and thus increase the strain on the amp . also the power is dropped to a great deal.

if you drive a 800watts speaker at 4 ohms with an 800watt amp at 4 ohms and put the amp to half . then u would be driving at a power of only 250--300watts . no matter how much u increase the volume fader on the mixer . it will strain the amp and will clip or distort as you are narrowing the sound signal from the mixer to the amp .

its always adviced to buy an amplifier matching the speaker output or vice versa.

quote:
i have got an idea to solve this issue

lets take a powered mixer . what is actually happenin with the amp inside the mixer. ?
will get an exact answer from my class on this.

Sorry, but that isn't logarithmic, nor is it correct. If you want to talk about logarithmic scales, then use logarithmic values - Watts are linear (Watts= Volts * Amps).
What you are describing is not a function of the amplifier, though, but of the potentiometer, that controls input sensitivity, i.e. volume control, albeit on the wrong scale.
Hearing is also logarithmic in terms of pitch. Let's use the "A" note.
"A" = 55Hz, 110Hz, 220Hz, 440Hz, 880Hz, 1760Hz, 3520Hz, 7040Hz, 14080Hz.
The difference between each of those pitches is one octave. To our ears they all sound to be the same distance apart (i.e. one octave), even when 55Hz to 110 Hz is a difference of 55Hz and from 7040Hz to 14080Hz is 7040Hz.
Doubling the frequency causes a constant increase in pitch. That's logarithmic.
in a linear scale as you go up the scale it doubles. for ex. in watts( 100.200.300.400.500.600.700.800.900.1000)
What you have shown is not a doubling, it is a linear increase of 100W. If it were to double, you would have 100, 200, 400, 800, 1600, etc.
I have a strong suspicion that you do not understand logarithms. You understand something, but I don't think that it's logarithms.

shaneantonio: What is it that you actually want from this thread now? To be blunt, I don't think there's anywhere the original discussion can go now as you clearly don't accept the overwhelming concensus. Fair enough, of course, but I get the feeling you're just keeping this thread going until somebody agrees with you.

there i go again , i might nt be good at explainin

i meant if in a linear scale of ten u go to the centre it would be 5
but on a logthramic scale it would be 2.50 to 3

hey chords n scales

u dont have to agree with me . n neither do u have to reply. the forum is meant for a discussion.

its better we close of the amp deal .n move to something new

I am am well aware of all three of those points. I chose however, to try just once more to find out exactly what it is you are trying to get out of the thread, on the off-chance that I can be of some help.

there i go again , i might nt be good at explainin

i meant if in a linear scale of ten u go to the centre it would be 5
but on a logthramic scale it would be 2.50 to 3
From this reply, it is obvious that you haven't grasped logarithms or logarithmic scales.

That, however, is totally irrelevant to the discussion on turning your amp to full power. Here, again, you don't seem to have grasped (or want to grasp) what the experts, in sound engineering, all have to say, presumably, because it contradicts your view. We have shown you what the real experts think, but continue to refute their view, without explaining why.
As for matching speakers, in the way you're discussing, is not something I'd be considering, in an abstract discussion on amplifier power settings. For me, it would be a given that my speakers match.

I also agree that Shane does not like to entertain any views that contradict his.

Here is yet another article from an expert on ProSoundWeb discussing Gain Structure in a live sound system. I have highlighted some comments that deal with the subject being discussed here.

To understand gain structure, we must first examine the various sound system components as they work together and interact as a system ...subjectively controlled by the operator. Since every system and each operator's approach will be slightly different, there is no hard and fast set of "rules" that govern the proper structuring of gain within a sound system. Because of this, it is a subject that is best learned not from reading, but from doing.

There are many variable points of electrical levels within a sound system, each of which can affect overall system gain...thus, each must be considered when looking at a system's "gain structure". The gain structure of a sound system is the overall 'picture' of user-set level controls, taking into account how graduating voltage levels set by these controls affect each other, thus "structuring" the electrical signal gain of the system.

We could use the term "overall gain adjustments", or "composite level settings", or other terms. Gain structure does a good job of describing what we wish to discuss here.

To function properly, a sound system requires adequate electrical headroom. This is obtained ("saved up", just like in a bank account) by never "max-ing out" the electrical signal potential at any point in the console or signal processing electronics...by establishing a margin of safety or comfortable operating level at each point in the signal path, from microphone input to power amplifier.

The system operator must have an understanding of, and deal effectively with, minute output levels from the various microphones (measured in millivolts/Pascals) to mixing console outputs (measured in volts, with a typical console having 85-95 dB of maximum voltage gain) to power amplifier outputs (measured in RMS watts...often 1,000 watts and up per output channel).

What?? You mean that knob on my amp actually has a purpose? Say it ain't so Joe!!

Errors in gain-structure setup can lead to audible distortion, limited mix control at the board, excessive speaker system output levels with little or no VU-metering functions at the mix position, and so forth. An ideal balance must be achieved in order to both maintain a clean audio signal path and be able to effectively operate the sound system for the event at an appropriate level while monitoring the various points of the audio signal path.

Shane, you keep falling back on that "logarithmic scales" argument. While all that stuff is good to know and understand, you do not have to necessarily understand all that to operate a PA system well. I don't completely understand how my computer works, but I get around on it pretty good.

You can go to many sites like ProSoundWeb and others and find many various articles about live sound. You don't see logarithmic scales discussed much.

You can trust a teacher in a classroom. I would rather take the advice of sound pros who operate million dollar systems for million dollar bands.