Eshu, Eshu we all fall down

Holy cow, Dennis and I aren't the only aspiring novelists in our posts! :)

Xavier's right, blues is cross-cultural. That's why you get so many variants of the blues scale - it's developed differently in different parts of the world, where the melting pot included aspects from different cultures.

The first he showed is the pentatonic - a simplification of the blues scale. Those notes seem to be core to all blues from all points of origin - notice how they're all included in the other variants he showed. The second, 1-b3-4-b5-5-b7, is the one I learned in college as the 'blues scale'. The 4-b5-5 series is almost always played with b5 as a passing tone.

The next variant, with both b7 and 7, isn't really played as a straight scale, although you commonly find it in blues music. The natural 7 gets played (as a passing tone) when the IV chord appears - it forms the 4-b5-5 series with IV as the root... it's like using the F major scale in the key of C when the chord root is F - the Bb is going to fit then, but not at other times.

The last variant, which adds 2, I haven't seen described as a blues scale. The end result, though, is a major scale with a flatted 3rd (or the ascending melodic minor if you want to look at it that way), with the addition of b5 and b7.

Blues isn't western harmony. According to the Harvard Dictionary of Music, the third and seventh are noted as natural or flat, and are "often played slightly out of tune". According to Piston "the addition of a minor third to a dominant seventh and dominant ninth harmony is an example of what jazz musicians call a 'blue note'."

Keyboard players in blues will often play the b3 and 3 at the same time - the dissonance is the closest they can get to a bending a note.

The concept of a blue note is pretty nebulous. I remember hanging out at Chicago's Checkerboard Lounge, jamming blues with some of the great 'old time' blues players. I'd ask one guy why he added a sixth to a chord - he'd tell me it was a blue note. I'd ask another guy why he'd add a fourth to a chord (playing 1-3-4-5) and he told me it was a blue note. Yet another guy would alternate between adding the b3 to a chord that had a natural 3rd, and adding b7. Blue notes, he'd tell me.

I asked how you could tell which ones were blue notes, since they had so many.... they laughed, and told me I hadn't paid my dues yet - and when I had, I'd know.

Two other things about Xavier's post... harmonica players bend down because they can't bend up (and guitarists bend up because they can't bend down), so it's physical rather than traditional. Also, the modal music of the middle ages wasn't forced into composers - there was a wide variety of secular music played by troubadours and minstels. At the time, though, the literate people were clergy, so a lot more church music was recorded than secular - which started to change in the late middle ages. Just as with blues, there is an unwritten history that we don't fully understand today.

Wow. I came here because I heard a big brew was going on. They were right.

That must be the longest post I've ever read.

Not quite sure I'm happy that I started it! :wink:

I don't know. You guys intellectualize music too much. I seriously doubt SRV or Angus is thinking about all these religious things when they were or are playing. Sheesh, get real. Man, they were into the music, the tone, and the feel, regardless of the psychological, spiritual, or whatever reasons the music makes you feel a certain way

These rockers make it perfectly clear in many ways that they understand this duality that is a natural conflict in life and in music. And both are truely masters at it very deserving of the drum with the two horns. Blues songs often represent this with double meanings in their lyrics and even the names they choose for their bands. Double Trouble. AC/DC .

And Stevie Ray Vaughn made it perfectly clear what he was about when I saw him live. The first time I saw him live was what made me pick up a guitar to play blues in the first place. He hypnotized the entire audience more than once that night. He did it with incredibly fast syncopated riffs that were polyrythmic and also very modal almost sounding like multiple broken records playing at different speeds and changing speeds at time. Like some kind of controlled chaos. When it ended the crowd was left dazed and silent. This crowd that was a pushing shoving general admission screaming jumping mess trying to get up front, were now bassically parylized, where they stood. Very silent. everyone leaning on each other for support. Then he laughed and looked at the band and said something like " You think I"ve got 'em " then told us to shake it off and said he had a message to get through and proceeded to lecture us on tolerance and the evils of racism and cultural superiority. And how aparthied in South Africa had to end. Really there were times when he took complete control over the crowd like a hypnotist. He was that good when he was on and not struggling with misbehaving tube amplifiers like he is on those live videos that came out of the woodwork. He knew exactly what he was doing and recognized the responsibility that put on him too. Blues recordings just don't catch that, just like a psychologist can't hypnotise you with a videotape.

The Rolling Stones album goathead soup with the horned skull the song sympathy for the devil is pointing out how old this music is by following it through events in history. lyrics like "every cop is a criminal and all the sinners, saints" point to the duality. The AC/DC song "who made who" has a double meaning too. We created machines and technology to help us and we can't be slaves to them and the double meaning is the same message referring to gods and religion.

hairballxavier

It does seem that religion and music are often mixed together. And most musicians tend to also be interested in religion. I am a very religious person myself, but I try to keep that to myself unless someone expresses an interest in the subject.

But I do not see religion as an enemy. You seem to have a few issues with the Church. There are lots of different churches, I am happy with mine (Baptist).

I do not see Blues music as complicated at all. I think Classical music is FAR more complicated. I do believe Blues music is very difficult to play. In fact, in a sense it may be the most difficult music to play. To play 30 songs to basically a 3 chord progression and to make each sound fresh and exciting is amazing really.

It is true that a Classically trained musician would have a difficult time playing the Blues, but it would be impossible for a strict Blues player to play Classical as well. But the same would hold true for Country, or Jazz, or Bluegrass etc..... Each style has it's own idiosyncrasies. A Blues guitarist by habit may easily and naturally fret the 6th string with their thumb, a Classical guitarist would never do that!! A Blues guitarist will put vibrato on nearly every note where a Classical guitarist would not. And once you've been playing guitar a certain way for a long time, it is very difficult to play it another way.

As for the Blues and the Devil, I'm sure a lot of what you have said is true. The Church has identified many forms of music as "evil" over the years. I think the main thing that the Church is concerned about is the sensuality of certain forms of music. I do not see Rock or Blues music as complicated at all. In fact I think it is rather primitive and simple, even base. It accentuates the beat which appeals to the body. Classical music accentuates the melody and harmony and appeals to the mind. You cannot say that Classical music is not exciting, some of it is very moving. But it is not the type of music to make you rush the stage and start breaking things. But Blues and Rock music is.

And as to how people act at a concert, you have to look at the type of person who would attend a Symphony versus a Rock Concert. By the way, if you look up the definition of symphony you will see one of the definitions is harmony. But yes, a bunch of young people wanting to party is going to act quite differently than a generally older crowd going to listen to Classical music.

And let me tell you, I have played some kick-#ss music in front of people many times. I can play this stuff, and when I'm on it's pretty hot. Yeah, people who are into the Blues and Rock will jump around. But people who do not enjoy this music will leave. It does not excite them. So you have to have a propensity and willingness to let go and get into this music. People who are more naturally restrained do not enjoy it. And this is where I might differ in opinion from you. I do not think that restraint is always a bad thing. In fact many times it is the best thing. I would rather ride in a car with someone who exercises control than some lunatic who is driving with complete abandon and recklessness.

And this is the problem some people have with the Blues and Rock. Like the music itself, it seems to incite people to recklessness and abandon. Look at the popular Mosh Pit a few years back. Yeah, some people were having a great time. But others were getting their jaws broke by some idiot acting like an animal.

So, I can see the Church (and others) point of view and wanting to discourage this type of behaviour. A person needs some self-control and restraint. And even Blues music must stick to a progression. Even it has some restraint. You are not just playing random notes on a whim. It even has the famous Blues scale with particular notes to give a particular effect.

I've got nothing against religion. A persons spirituality is a personal thing. The church however has done some horrible things and continues to do so. It's still trying to stamp out cultures. Crusades, Jihads, missions, final solutions, etc. at their roots are about ideas of cultural superiority. And the funny thing is, in it's efforts to stamp out other cultures they have made their "Satan" more popular than ever. Eshu/ Legba/ Exu was renamed Satan as a slap in the face at the church for trying to stamp out voodoo culture.

Remember that Eshu was not a god in the same sense as the church thinks of a god. It's more akin to a group sciences in the study of the duality of human nature and a musical note was named after him because that note represents the balance of this duality. Eshu is about balance and compromise, and tolerance in human relations, physiology, and psychology. And in many ways western science is way behind in understanding how all these are interrelated and interdependent on each other. But the church has always had a big problem with science because it conflicts with it's superstitions. Ignorance and intolerance have always been the source of it's power to control people.

And yes, rock and blues music does have an out of control quality to it. It affects people in an emotional way. Especially when performed by talented musicians. The Stones have likened their concerts to a voodoo celebration And that's what they are bassically, if you get down to it's roots. Major acts know it can get out of control and they also have a sense of responsibility about it. The Altimont tragedy is an example. If you have an angry crowed it may not be a good idea to take away their inhibitions. But it's good for you to let go and get lost in the music sometimes. It reduces stress, and stress kills. It's thereputic.

Metalica has banned alcohol at it's concerts. And that's probably a good thing. Their music is bassically blues stripped down to the basics and cranked up full blast and full throttle. The song Enter Sandman is about Eshu. Eshu is the sandman. Many would say that it is based on the locrian mode because of Hetfield's use of the augmented 4th and diminished 2nd. But really they are used in a blues based context. They are used to break harmony. The 4+ is used to pull from the 5th and the flat 2nd is used to pull the root. The solo is blues pentatonic based. The use of the flat 2nd is rare historically but many African tribes have a special drum for that note that is only used in times of war. It is used to invoke the war god because it incites violence. It is used to prepare warriors for battle. Metallica uses this note extensively in their compositions.

European military commanders were very aware of the significance of this in the days of colonialist Africa. That's where the term "beating the war drums" comes from.

Eshu

Gazoontite 8)

There was an old song by the Moody Blues "I'm just a Singer (in a Rock and Roll Band)". And that is my position in life. I cannot possibly correct all the world's problems. The best thing any individual can do is live their life right and be a good example. It's not that I don't care, I do. But I am not in a position to make big changes.

I have a live tape of Stevie Ray Vaughn where he is talking to the audience about South Africa and apartheid. Honestly, Stevie sounds like he was stoned out of his gourd and wasn't making too much sense. I respect SRV as a musician, but he had some real problems with alcohol and drugs. It is too bad, because he had overcome a lot of these problems just before his death. And he himself said his music was much better. I think it was commendable for him to speak publicly about these issues, but bad form to speak out in that condition. People are not going to take you very serious when you are mumbling incoherently, and that is what it sounded like to me.

As for your musician friend, the one who gets angry if you pronounce his name incorrectly. Heh, this is America and we speak English. It may not be easy for us to say his name properly. Well, he can always go back home. I get a little angry at people who come here and enjoy a better life, and then put us down. And telling us that we don't know how to play music right. OK. America has been at the forefront of popular music for 100 years. Yes, because America is a melting-pot we have many influences on our music. And America has introduced the greatest music in the world for the last century. You have Jazz, Blues, Rock, Country, Bluegrass, etc..... So your friend can put down our music all he wants. Our music speaks for itself. And it's not all from Africa. Country and Bluegrass have a lot of influence from Ireland and Scotland. You can find influence from probably every nation on earth in our music.

Personally, I try to stay away from troubled people. I believe it was John Podesta who spoke to President Bill Clinton about Monica Lewinsky. This was before all the scandal. But Podesta was paying attention and asked Clinton why he was having so much association with Lewinsky. Clinton told him, "She is troubled, and I'm just trying to help her", to which Podesta replied, " Yes, but troubled people cause trouble". Clinton should have listened. So, I try to stay away from troubled, angry people.

And it may be true that the blues scale originated from this ancient religion. But most people who play the Blues are not aware of this. This does not prevent them from playing the music properly. Music is something you hear with your ears and feel with your soul. You don't have to get all mystical to do that. You gotta watch mystical people. You will usually find drugs close by.

Anyway, this is so far off the original question. People play the Minor Pentatonic over Major Chords because it introduces a sad, melancholy sound to the music. Sheesh, this is why they call it the Blues. It is not some mystical thing. It is quite simple. You don't have to study religion to understand it.

And my apologies to NoteBoat. Once again I called him Notebook. And I don't care if he sells a few copies of his book on here. I've thought about buying it myself. He is a good teacher and explains things in a way that a simple-minded guy like me can understand. He has been a tremendous help to hundreds, if not thousands on this site for FREE.

SirN,

You cracked me up..I can't stop laughing

No need to apologize, Wes - I've been called a lot worse :)

I have a heck of a lot of respect for you - I've heard you're a great player, and your posts are informative - especially the gear-oriented ones on PAs and other equipment. Some of the most useful advice I've seen!

Thank you hairballxavier (awful nick) for your very entertaining and informative post. It was a good read. Article material perhaps?

Only one quibble:
This was quickly dubbed "diabolous en musica" or the devil in music, and was banned. A crime punishable by burning at the stake.

This is an urban myth and never happened. I spent a lot of time once tracking down a lot of knowledgable sources and I'm pretty sure of this. Yes, it was often avoided, mainly because it was difficult (near impossible) to sing, but not banned or anything. "Diabolus in musica" was more of a jesting nickname than any real accusation of Satanic influence.
So the Locrian mode was banned before it really had a chance to exist.
A group of knowledgable musicians and theorists once tried to find a single piece of music that was actually in Locrian mode and were unable to. It will not work because the dim chord just does not sound resolved. The closest they could find was my fellow Icelander Bjork's "Army of Me" and that's only in the bassline.

NoteBoat

Sorry to get a little political there. Boy, this thread took us all over. I realize this is an international forum with members from all over the world. I love that really. It is great to have friends all over with guitar and music as a common love.

And I don't disagree with hairballxavier at all. I think he is correct about many things he said. And it is very imformative to learn about where the "blue note" came from. So that was good.

But I did get a little upset by the attitude of his friend. Right now, my step-daughter who just turned 19 years old this last Sunday, is stationed at Camp Anaconda in Balad, Iraq about 40 miles north of Baghdad. It is also called "Mortaritaville" by the soldiers there because of the almost daily mortar attacks. So I am not really into hearing some America-bashing at the moment.

Holy cow, Dennis and I aren't the only aspiring novelists in our posts! :)...

The concept of a blue note is pretty nebulous. I remember hanging out at Chicago's Checkerboard Lounge, jamming blues with some of the great 'old time' blues players. I'd ask one guy why he added a sixth to a chord - he'd tell me it was a blue note. I'd ask another guy why he'd add a fourth to a chord (playing 1-3-4-5) and he told me it was a blue note. Yet another guy would alternate between adding the b3 to a chord that had a natural 3rd, and adding b7. Blue notes, he'd tell me.

I asked how you could tell which ones were blue notes, since they had so many.... they laughed, and told me I hadn't paid my dues yet - and when I had, I'd know.

I really didn't mean to write an article, but in order to be taken seriously I had to go much more in depth than I had intended, espicially after mentioning Eshu :twisted: in other posts. :roll: I suspected that everyone just thought I was off my rocker. All that to explain 1 note :?

And as far as blue notes go, well they ain't got nuthin' to do with "paying your dues". Those guys were just messing with you or didn't want you takin' their gigs, or doin' their thang.

You just have to look at it from a bluesmans perspective. There is nothing nebulous about blue notes, they are really very simple. If you can understand a simple Chuck Berry rhythm you can understand blue notes.

Blue notes are just any note that is used to pull the music from a tonic center or break harmony. Say in your example of the 1-3-4-5 the 4th is used to pull up the 3rd . Many times I will use that in combination with the 6th to also pull up from the 5th. (like a Chuck Berry R5-R6 riff) As an example Van Halen's "black and blue" uses this combo IIRC. The 2nd or 9th can also be used in combination with the 4th or 6th very effectively. The 2nd pulls on the bass root and the 9th pulls on the octave.

However generally you do not use the 2,4,6 blue notes in combination with the b3 or b7 blue notes because they pull down instead of up.(that's the best way I can describe it) You can use a b3 with a b7 but you can't use it with a 4th or 6th. And if you're hitting b3rds and b7ths while the bluesmen are hitting 4ths and 6ths you screw up the groove and the blues guys will get mad at you screwing everything up and tell you that you haven't paid your dues. It's "Open your ears or get off the stage tonedeaf greenhorn (noob) everyone knows you can't do that". "That's rollin' when yer s'posed to be rockin''. There is a method to the madness, and there are blues rules just as classical music has it's rules.

The b5 and the natural 7 aren't really used as blue notes as much as passing notes. They can be used as blue notes but it is uncommon. They tend to get pushed along to the 5th or root instead of pulling at them.

However, old school metal bands like Metallica use the b5 and b2nd as blue notes alot. I know, metalheads think it's sacreligious to mention Metallica and and blues in the same sentence, but really, before Randy Rhoads almost all heavy metal was blues based just like rock and much of it still is. And most of Kirk Hammet's solos are straight E blues scale or Eb if he's tuned down. The b5 pulls really hard on the 5th and the b2 pulls really hard on the root. That is a staple in the Death metal genre nowadays.

Now of course one could look at a 1-4-6 in E as being an inversion of an A triad chord but that's not really the way a bluesman looks at it. Its just an E with 2 blue notes. So really there are more "blue notes" than "regular notes"

You can't understand blues if you look at everything from a classical mode standpoint. You have to look at things from a different perspective. Blues rhythm is not about keeping everything in harmony, it's about pulling away from harmony and letting it spring back.

This topic reminds me of the battle between classical and
contemporary visual artists. It is obvious to any honest
person, that the former is worthy of admiration because
of the amount of precision and skill required, and that
the latter is valuable for its simple emotion and directness.
Between the two extremes there lies every possible mixture
of discipline and wild abandon.

Is Van Gogh a better artist than Rembrandt?
Should Jackson Pollack decide for us?
All silly questions. But still fun to explore.

Another observation on the whole crossroads deal.....
Ralph had to resort to a Mozart Mojo Blues to
kick Steve's a**.

I split this post because it had developed into a ramble only loosely related to the original topic.

Ya know in a way this thread exemplifies everything I love about this board.

It's one heck of a good read. The discussion is passionate, informed, entertaining and educational. It's also totally devoid of the flames and negativity you'd find on 99% of the forums out there.

That being said, my sig sums up my take on the blues ;)