natural talent

Jason,

I'm with you up until the argument about Yngwie, I would challenge you or anyone else on this site to go ahead and practice 10 hrs a day for x number of days/years and you think you will play as fast as Yngwie. I'd bet my life you wouldn't and if by some small chance you did then you are one of the one in a million people who can do it and it's because you have that indescribable something which I'm calling "natural talent". Part of that talent allows you to practice and stay focused on something that long it's not easy and I keep hearing the argument that so it so did it so it's just a matter of putting the time in...followed but a hundred excuses why they can't/don't want to do it....If you're a Seinfeld fan it's like the episode Jerry bet Kramer he couldn't build levels in his apartment.

Until someone actually does it and proves me wrong it's just an untested theory that if I put in as many hours practicing as Yngwie or Micheal Angelo or whomever I will play as fast as them...and that's not true, there are many things that are beyond your control that may limit you.

In music it's not as big a deal since music is a subjective art. Commercially it's all about giving people what they want to hear and that might be technically easy crap so making it in the muisc industry does not necessarily mean you are a great musician or even a musicaian at all.

I like that point cnev. I still think that if I could put in those 10 hours a day that I could play as fast as the fastest out there, but you're right: the focus level of focus that that would require is something that could definitely depend of factors out of our control. But here's the thing, as soon as someone puts in all that time and effort and reaches that high level of playing that they've been striving for, you can just say, "well, I guess they had natural talent." But, like I said, I don't think anyone who puts in that kind of time and effort will come away empty handed. Sure, once you make it to the top, someone maybe be a little faster/better than you and there's nothing you can do about it, they just have that inborn edge (call it talent if you will)...but you can go a long long way (a lot further than most think) on blood, sweat, and tears, if you know what I mean :smile:

One of my favorite quotes is from Thomas Edison:
Genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent perspiration

Please don't think I'm saying that don't respect your opinion or that I'm trying to change your mind. I think we actually agree on a lot of this, we're just expressing it differently. And as for the parts we don't agree on, well, that's what makes life interesting, no? :smile:

jason,

Not a problem I rather enjoy a good debate and none of this stuff really matters but when yes you are right if you were to put in that much time you will make great improvements in your playing no doubt but just being able to do that takes a type of talent most people just don't posess. I know there's no way in HE double hockey sticks that I could ever practice that long.

And the argument is like the chicken and the egg analogy. Is it because they practiced 10 hours a day that made them good or is it because they have some intangible something that even allows them to practice this long in the first place. My argument is that they have something inherent in there makeup that makes them able to do that.

That's why people make the analogy of if I practice 10 hours a day I'll be the best and I'm saying you need something in you to even allow you to practice that long and stay focused.

And the reason why you don't know of people who put in 10hours a day and got nowhere is because 'they got nowhere' and so you've never heard of them. ;)
I agree that people can be good at lots of things with enough practice, but to become exceptional requires something more. For eg look at the World Cup, there are plenty of footballers in each country who practice as much if not more than, the 23 picked to represent each country but they are considered not to be 'World Class', yet they make a good living from the sport.

There is a such thing as natural talent, ask any coach who coaches Little League baseball. Take two 9 year old kids and put them at bat. One kid will hit every pitch you throw him, the second kid can't seem to hit the easiest pitch. One kid is a "natural", the other is not.

And it is the same with music. Some people are born with a great ear. They sing on pitch from day one and can pick out melodies easily on a guitar or piano. Another person just doesn't get it. They are tone deaf. Yes, in time they will hear the pitches and sing in tune, but it is not as easy or natural for them as it was the other person.

Here is a video of Jimi Hendrix playing Hey Joe. Super easy song, same 5 chords over and over. Any beginner guitarist can play the chords. But can they play it like this??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDfZAO8HngI&search=jimi%20hendrix

One only has to watch this video and you can see that Hendrix was a "natural". It was easy for him. The guitar was a natural extension of himself and his personality. And Hendrix had more than that. He heard sounds in his head that no one before him even imagined. You can hear these sounds in this song. And guitar players are still trying to imitate and copy this, but nobody really comes close.

OWA the point is although you see it as a purely technical skill no matter how much you or I may practice we will NEVER reach the proficiency of a Yngwie...Everyone can't just practice for 24 hours a day and be able to do this. is not just a function of time practicing, it's so much more than that, it's all the intangible "natural" talent that someone has that allows them to reach a certain level.

The people that have more "natural" talent have the potential to develop more than someone that doesn't.

My whole point in all of this has always been certain people have soemthing that allows them to excel and develop faster and farther than most people. This intangible trait is called "natural" ability. And this natural talent comprises many, many different skills, one is the ability to focus for hours on end and the ability to internalize everything you are practicing.

I do not beleive that everyone given the same circumstances will reach the same levl of proficiency and that goes for ANY thing you do.

You always hear the argument something along the lines of " If I practiced for 10 hours a day I'd be as good as so and so" Maybe for a few people that might be true, a very few, but for 99% of us we will never be as good as those people. I have yet to see anyone actually do it. It's easy to say it but no one ever does it. Most people don't even have the ability to sit and focus for 10 hours a day let alone become proficient at something that takes that long. The ability to be able to do that is part of natural talent.

There's a lot here.

Being a great guitarist is a matter of tim put into it. I do think that if you practiced, in a focused way, for a grat amount of hours you'll get somewhere. Ynwgie's "talent" if that's what you call it, is that he was focused, very very focused, most likely. I don't know much about him, but i believe he formulated a goal and that goal was to be the fastest player.

You say that yo have never seen anyone actually do this, play for a lot of hours and become great...well, what about eddie van halen, john frusciante...jimi hendrix...name any recognized great player and there you have someone who practiced in a focused way for a lot of hours every day.

the ability to have long hours of focused practice is not talent, it's determination.

How do you know Yngwie has talent? Maybe the reason he had to practice for that amount of time was because he didn't have any. All these people that are put onto pedistals. Are they gifted, or did they start out practicing alone like you, me or anyone else on here?

Anyway, these people aren't on some other level of playing. They are only human.

I have to say, guitar players facinate me. I took sociology so I notice these things. But I grew up doing visual art for the most part. Most people stepped back looked at the whole piece. Not once did someone say "those brush strokes must've been hard to do." And then all of the sudden think the piece was better. Nor did I have anyone tell me I can't be as good as <insert artist>. I wonder why music is different.

I've been botha painter and a musican (of sorts!) and i've given this a fair amount of thought (the differences between painting and instrument playing). what i think, simplified, is that painting and drawing and "natural". you can pick up a brush and start to paint, put color down, paint whatever you want. guitar playing is not "natural". there's nothing natural about fitting your fingers into a fretboard and making sounds. there's nothing natural about playing ng enought to have calluses develop so you can play some more. i could go on but i'm tired and hungry.

However there are people who can do that unnatural thing much easier than others, they form chords quickereasier, can even make up chords by ear while trying to play songs they hear, and they can strum to the pattern without the effort I need to put in.
And lots of people can't draw, my brother wasis terrible whereas I was good and loved it!

When I read this thread, here's the first thing that came to my mind: In a Health Sciences class that I took last year, we learned that muscles are made up of two types of muscle fibers. Fast twitch fibers can fire very rapidly but don't deliver much strength. On the other hand, slow twitch fibers cannot operate quikcly, but have about 10x the strength of the fast twitch fibers. Here's the catch though: it's not up to you what ratio of slow/fast fibers you have in your muscles. You can eat protein until your sick of it and lift weights all you want, but if you don't have the crazy number of slow twitch fibers that Arnold Schwarenegger has, you'll never be anywhere near as strong as he is. But at the same time, Arnold will never be able to run a 100 meter dash in under 15 seconds. I've never heard of it, but if muscles are this way, then I can only assume that the brain works in a similar way...it seems likely that there would be trade-offs between the strengths and weaknesses of the different parts of the mind.

So in this sense at least, there does exist some factor beyond our control that places bounds on some physical and mental capacities and allows for easier development of others. However, I think that people tend to focus way too much on these limiting factors. Take for instances the fast/slow muscle fiber argument from above. If your a runner and all you have are fast twitch muscles, then you will probably progress the fastest and farthest if you work on sprinting. Or if you have mostly slow twitch fibers, then distance running will probably treat you the best. But if your somewhere in the middle, you just have to find the race for you...something in between like a mile or half-mile might be your cup-of-tea (sorry I keep coming back to running...but I ran through high-school and into college, so I absolutely love it). However, the best distance runners in the world could still probably take most people in a sprint. Obviously not because that's their specialty...but b/c they practiced it over and over and over to help compliment their skills.

I guess, in the end, the point I'm trying to make is that, sure, everyone's body/mind that is geared toward a certain set of skills. But I think you have to reach a ridiculous level (attained only through practicing more than any of us care to even think about) before the intrinsic limitations of the mind and body are what seperates the good from the best. Someone wrote earlier that even if they practiced 10 hours a day, that they would never be able to play like Yngwie...I dare you to try it. I upped my practicing from 1 hour a day to about 3 hours a day last summer, and I couldn't believe how much more quickly I progressed. And have you ever noticed that all of the players that CAN play like Yngwie HAVE practiced for 10 hours a day for quite some time? And I haven't heard of too many people who have put in that kind of time and don't have something extraordinary to show for it. I know a lot of us have families and jobs and can't practice 10 hours a day...but that's not talent...those are just priorities...and there's nothing wrong with that. But just like the different distances that you can race, there are different ways of being a great guitarist: shredder (Yngiwe), songwritter (Lennon, Dylan), or pouring your soul out through your guitar(B.B. King). If you want to be great and are willing to put in the time, you'll find your niche and practicing extra hard will fill in the rest.

It's the other way round. It'snot that have more fast twotch or more slow twitch so you'll be better at a certain thing. you develop more fast or slow twitch depending on what you use. same withthe brain. in an earlier post someone mentioned something about the area of your brain being bigger or more developed in the finger area. It's more like if you use your fingers more then that area will beome bigger. this is a fact. i've studied these things in school.

My point is, it's easy to make the mistake that just because a person is good at what they are do, that means they are talented. I've been told I'm a talented artist. However if you break down talent you get:

4 art courses in highschool
1 course on human anatomy
1 art course in college
1 course outside of school
1 book human anatomy
2 books on how to draw
and countless internet tutorials.

So these people that are talented may have had to invest a lot to get to where they are. I'm just lost on how a person needs to practice for 10 hours and is somehow talented.

Conviction does help but I don't know if that's talent. Plus the line between conviction and stubborness is a fine one. One that I cross a lot.

Pearl and OWA,

Here's the deal, pearl you listed some artists who happen to be a few of the best guitarists and you noted that all of them practiced for long periods of time so how could that be talent. But if you look at it you've singled out three quitarists out of how many people that play millions and you don't think they are the best because of natural talent. My argument is those type of people get to where they are because they have qualities which I'll call natural talent that the rest of us don't have. Such as the ability to practice for an insane amount of hours. Trust me that takes talent to do that. And you can see that even with the large amount of natural talent it still requires hours of practice to hone their skills.

So when I hear people write will if I practiced 10 hours a day I'd be as good as them then yes you would be if you had the ability and natural talent to do it , but none of the people that say these could ever do it. They make the statement as if that's all it would boil down to is practicing for that long everyday but after a couple days at best, everyone would quit. So in reality they don't have it in them to practice that long everyday and what is it...natural talent. Remember to me at least natural talent involves many many attributes that make up talented people that are intangible things they have that the rest of us don't. It's just not one discrete attribute.

It's like me saying if I was a genius I'd be smart.

Some people have natural talent. My ex-wife never had an art lesson in her life, but could draw or paint as good as any professional artist.

We had been married over ten years, and I know for a fact she had never painted once during our marriage. But one day she went out and bought a canvas and oil paints. She painted a fantastic painting of a flamingo in a jungle. I took art in school and appreciate art very much, but do not have good skills. But I know good art when I see it. This painting my ex made was incredibly good. She just had a natural talent for it. She painted this scene from what she saw in her head. She did not look at photos or anything. She could draw anything she wanted naturally.

Her brother was also very naturally talented. The first time I met him he was only 11 years old and was playing The Entertainer by Scott Joplin on piano note for note. He had never had a single lesson. I gave him a guitar and showed him a couple of chords. I saw him about a month later and he could play every song on a Foreigner album that was popular at the time. He has an incredible ear, can listen to difficult solos and figure them out in minutes. That is natural talent.

all right, already. I'll settle this. Starting tomorrow I will begin- 6 hrs sleep,6 hrs work, 10 hrs practice, 2 hrs for eating and hygiene. I am the poster boy for no natural talent, I have been playing since the first of the year (1st resolution I ever kept) and can still hardly play, also I am missing my thumb on my stumming/picking hand, and the fingers of my other hand are thick and short (one in fact is somewhat misshappen due to an unfortunate nail-gun mishap.) I am starting with less than natural talent. Now if within the next 5-50 years a new amazing guitar player hits the scene with one thumb and stubby fingers we will have our answer. Just to be sure there isn't another phalgnes-ly impaired player out there I will name my group Rat Data and call my first album "My Bok-Choy has Bolted" (If I can't get a group my name will be Julio Montaban)

all right, already. I'll settle this. Starting tomorrow I will begin- 6 hrs sleep,6 hrs work, 10 hrs practice, 2 hrs for eating and hygiene. I am the poster boy for no natural talent, I have been playing since the first of the year (1st resolution I ever kept) and can still hardly play, also I am missing my thumb on my stumming/picking hand, and the fingers of my other hand are thick and short (one in fact is somewhat misshappen due to an unfortunate nail-gun mishap.) I am starting with less than natural talent. Now if within the next 5-50 years a new amazing guitar player hits the scene with one thumb and stubby fingers we will have our answer. Just to be sure there isn't another phalgnes-ly impaired player out there I will name my group Rat Data and call my first album "My Bok-Choy has Bolted" (If I can't get a group my name will be Julio Montaban)

agreed!

Horray for the scientific method! You'll have to keep us posted Uno.
By the way, clever name :smile: