Ok it's Friday I'm bored and I have a question. It may sound petty but it's driving me a little crazy. we got a new guitar player in the band about 8 weeks ago and have been doing fine until recently. We got into a bit of an disagreement on what chords where being played in a particular part of Boys are back in Town. No big deal but I play an F in there and he was adamant that there is no F in the song. Well I know I don't have a great ear that's why I have some that tabs out the song and he tabbed it with an F and I even had a book that has the same F in it. Since we are a cover band e are playing covers so I use the original recording as the basis. When I asked him where he learned it he said Youtube some live version.
The problem with that is there is NO live version that's going to be exactly like the record and I told him I don't care what version you want to play but we all have to agree on it before hand so we avoid these things.
So he just learned Sunshine of your Love which I have played for the past 3-4 years with many different people. We start playing and right away it sounds way off. Try again and same thing. I looked at him and I wasn't sure what he was playing so I asked him. He started the song with an F chord..huh? The way I learned it and any version I've ever heard starts on the D on the 12th fret of the D string.
So I tell him it satrts on D and he tells me no that's not right and I say it's the way I've played it with everyone else. Now the bass player jumps in and says I'm being a baby and he's going to quit because it's to stressful for him and that he's played in three bands and they all played it that way so there's no way 3 other guitar players can be wrong. I got alittle agitated and he told me I was defensive. I actually learned this song from and Eric Clapton signature song book but I've never seen or heard anyone play it starting in F not that you can't but I never heard it and I know the orignal was not that way.
So trying to be nice I say OK I'll just transpose but then I got lazy so I told him if he had a tab or even sheet music of his version send it to me. His reply was I have something better go to Youtube and type in Cream Sunshine of your love cover....WTF.
Why would I learn a cover of the song we are trying to learn why wouldn't I use the actual recording by the artist plus there are a million of covers of Sunshine on Youtube which one.
So now we have some tension over this and I think I'm right yet and can't say anything or I'm a baby.
Any suggestions on how to handle or am I wrong is everything I've played and every tab I've ever seen wrong too?
"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!
Your opening line needs to be "OK, you're the new guy in our band. You've been here 8 weeks. We play it this way. You don't like it? Leave. End of."
The new guy has to make the effort to fit in. If you play the song one way then he has to play it that way too.
We (Big Band) just managed out a singer who's done one gig with us because she couldn't read music and kept coming in at the wrong place because that's where she thought her cue was. That's the way the cookie crumbles. Can you imagine what might have been said if I'd turned up and said they had to rewrite all their material to fit the keys I played in? It would have been two words, ending with "... off"
So, no, I don't think you're being a muppet.
Sunshine of your love - everyone I've played it with plays it in D, the Registry of Guitar Tutors has it in its Grade 1 book in A, and Trinity College has it in its Grade 3 book in D, and when you're playing it in a band you have to work to the singer's range so F might be better for some people. Can't help you on that one.
"Be good at what you can do" - Fingerbanger"
I have always felt that it is better to do what is beautiful than what is 'right'" - Eliot Fisk
Wedding music and guitar lessons in Essex. Listen at: http://www.rollmopmusic.co.uk
It sounds like a very weird situation. I'm glad I don't play covers so I don't have to run into problems like these, although there always seem to be something in a band to argue over.
I would say that the singer determines the key of the song and nothing else. It doesn't matter what key the original is in or what people play it like on youtube.
It also seems a bit weird that the bass player teams up with the new guy. Did he play in D or F when you started and it sounded wrong?
You are playing it correctly if you're starting on a D, although it was a long time ago I played it. Ok, just listened, definitely D, checked on the guitar.
"Talent is luck. The important thing in life is courage."
It sounds pretty immature and bush-league to me. Is that the kind of band you want to play with? Covering songs is one thing, arguing about whose playing it right is just silly. Do you guys have the ability to HEAR each other and play what feels good or are you all grinding through what you think is right and hoping it sounds good? If you're just grinding'm out you might want to slow things down and break songs up into sections and learn them that way so everybody is on the same page. I'm pretty sure that is the exact original meaning of that phrase. Either way, someone needs to step up and call the shots and say, you're playing this, try playing this instead. It doesn't have to be the best player or the singer either, but someone has got to lead.
But this ship might have sunk already from how I read it. It doesn't sound like you're getting any respect. That can't be tolerated and I'd tell them that and I wouldn't care what it lead to. We all know what it takes to learn an instrument and put it out there, you need to respect the people you're playing with, if you don't you're not doing anyone any favors. If someone called me a baby in a practice I'd quietly leave. If I were still 25 I would have taken that persons front teeth with me. I've played with situations that sucked the enjoyment out of me and you're better off walking away even if it means not playing with anybody for awhile. I'm not saying that this is the situation you're in, but too often when you get a few inexperienced guys playing at about the same level in a group together everybody gets worse. I'd much rather be the least experienced guy in the room than linger in mutual mediocrity. Maybe this is a sign.
Sunshine ... I play in D. Not sure the part in Boys? I play an F# in the main verse. In either case, the new guy needs to be the one doing the adjusting in my book.
"Work hard, rock hard, eat hard, sleep hard,
grow big, wear glasses if you need 'em."
-- The Webb Wilder Credo --
I agree (^)...Either it's a "band" or it's not. Some people, no matter what they do, are just plain pig-headed. This guy sounds like a loadie...destined to be a roadie. I'd start looking for another member that you will be able to share "getting somewhere" as a group rather than a psychologicl reading of this guy's head. I mean, who needs that?
Sorry to be so brutal, matey.
Cat
"Feel what you play...play what you feel!"
Two separate issues for me: First what key/chords for the song? Second, how do you resolve disagreements in the band.
The key of a song is interesting. Sunshine in D is traditional. I know a keyboardist who plays Moondance in Dm - huh? But what about Watchtower? Am or C#m - both are common, plus this is a song that's meant to be "portable". Does the key affect the ability to play a guitar solo due to open-string notes? Does it affect the vocalist's range? Anyway, work it out, and use charts to learn songs.
Managing conflict in a small group of talented people is always tricky. Careful use of consensus, leadership, and individual veto is required. This is always tricky with artists, and your band(s) seem to have more issues than ours do. So for Boys, does the F work? Or is it just wrong? For Sunshine, I think you should push for D, as it's the most common key, and the bass riff is high enough at the D-octave as it is.
One thing you didn't mention, Chris....does this new guitarist also sing? If he does, that might be a simple expanation as to why he prefers key of F to key of D.
Other than that, I know we've discussed this many times before - I'm a great believer in learning a song then playing around with it, seeing if I can come up with something slightly different. On the other hand, you like to learn a song note-for-note and play it exactly like the original. Nothing wrong with either way, we're just wired slightly differently IMO...but surely, by now, your bandmates should know how YOU like to cover a song? And take that into consideration?
You've been with this band a long time now.....I think it's up to you, or you and/or another long serving band member, to confront this guy and say, "look, this is the way WE do this song - if you want to do it a different way, then give me a few good reasons why we should ALL change our POV of this song just because you want to do it differently.....?" Then watch him flounder, lost for words....hopefully!
Best of luck, Chris!
:-) :-) :-)
Vic
"Sometimes the beauty of music can help us all find strength to deal with all the curves life can throw us." (D. Hodge.)
In my experience, if I don't agree with the others in the band, it's better to leave.
It's not an easy decision though. I played in my last band before the one I'm in now for almost two years. The last year nothing was very much fun. So I realised why I play music - to have fun.
Sure, I left and didn't play with anyone for a year, but now I'm so much happier with the guys I play with so it was worth it. The difference is this time around everyone is not taking everything so extremley serious. Our goal with playing is to just have fun. This is the most important thing of all. Because of this there are no arguments and we sound alot better than my last band did.
In this situation I find it's much easier to write song too. Ok, so a song isn't very good. Doesn't matter, we'll play it until we have something better to replace it with.
In my experience, if a band can't agree on a chord in a song, they won't be able to agree about anything at all.
"Talent is luck. The important thing in life is courage."
I think your bass player should have backed you up if its the way you always do it.
together we stand, divided we fall..........
Bring an mp3 player to practice, fire it up and ask him to play along with it. Every time he's out of tune, hit him with a penny. If he's playing Sunshine in F, you better stop at the bank on the way over.
OK this story gets pretty funny but...
First just a little background. I know alot of you know I'm a note for note kind of guy but beleive it or not I am open to playing any arrangement for a song the band wants to play BUT what I've told the band (and I think it goes in one ear and out the other)
is that if we are going to do that then we all need to be on the same page, you can't just show up and start playing a song in a different key or something without telling anyone.
Anyway after last Wednesday's practice I was pretty wound up so I sent an email to the other guitar player and bass player asking them to send me the tab or sheet music for what they are playing. Anyway the guitar player tells me he has something better and he send me a link to a youtube video. OK I have a probelm with stuff off the internet as it's usually wrong but I figured I'd humor him and look. As soon as I started watching I'm like WTF this guys is playing it the same way I have beeen in D.
Make a long story short I show the guitar player and tell him it's the same way on youtube and he says that's how he was playing it? NO freaking way when I asked him he said he was playing it in D all along...WOW
Then the bass player gets there and I tell him what happened and he says oh I thought you said it was in F and I always played it in D I guess I misunderstood...
"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!
Egad. Send in the clowns....
I don't mind playing with people who don't know the difference between a D and an F, provided they don't pretend to know the difference. Is that what's happening here?
Really, some things are fundamental to band work. Songs are not "in" a key -- the singer's range has to determine that. Songs, esp. pop/rock songs, are not violin concertos. Band members have to be able to communicate about what they are playing, if not in terms of "legit" music theory, then somehow. Tension about musical or personal issues will eventually come to a head, and it's often better to get stuff out in the open & sort it out if possible -- or sort it out by leaving if it's not going to get any better. And if the tension always seems to revolve around you, it might be time to sit down & have a long talk with yourself.
Sorry if that sounds harsh. The above is all based on personal experience, including the part about band tension always revolving around me. If it doesn't apply to you, that's great.
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whipped cream." - Frank Zappa
Hey Crow whatch'a talkin bout? Me cause tension? Naaah
Anyway yea you are right about playng it in a key the singer can sing in and if needed we can do that but most of the time we would just drop the song rather than change anything. I mean we are a cover band and there are like 8 billion songs to cover no reason that we have to manipulate any but that's not the problem really.
I can see a possible difference of opinion with the other guitar player. I know why we had an issue with the chord in Boys are Back in town.
With all the guys I've played with when we did covers (we learn them outside of practice) we always decided to use the original studio version as the base and then make changes from that. The idea is then you have the "arrangement" that we will be playing and there isn't any confusion. I've mentioned that to the other guitar player but his reply is youtube for everything.
When we were working on Boys are back in town I learned the song form the original album and when he played it he played it different, why, because he went on yotube and found some live version of the song...again not a problem but a live version WILL NEVER be played exactly like the original so right from the get go we are comparing apples and oranges.
I like the music to be tight and we all need to be on the same page whatever page that is sometimes I think close is good enough for them.
"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!
If the solution exasperates the problem than the problem is fundamental.
We're talking about "Sunshine of your love" here, a great tune but one most aspiring rockers get a grasp of between "smoke on the water" and their first Mel Bay book. At least in a passable way. As a band, you can either play it or you can't and it's not exactly Inca Roads. But this isn't about a classic Cream song.
Again, only judging from my experience and your query, it sounds like the real issue is this band might not be ready for prime time. You might be best served getting some better experience elsewhere.
Think of this band like a business or a team and then think of the model as you described it; aspire to something that's been done a million times before, try to copy others as closely as possible, gather information from suspect sources, show more interest in abandoning projects than resolving minor issues, have no clear leadership. How much would you invest in that?
