SSG and Nick's comments on songwriting

Discuss away.
My input is going to be short as befits my lack of time with the guitar.
Dylan and I both picked up a guitar (for the first time) just over a year ago. I'm not speaking for Dylan but I ask whatever decisions or course of action taken (as the result of the proposed discussion) to consider us beginners. I'm easily intimidated by the years of experience most of you have. At the same time, don't let me slow down the lessons that are planned. I don't expect I'll be doing every assignment anyway. I'm guessing I would do about 1 out of 5 optimistically. Hard for me to judge since I don't know much (musically, of course). I'll try and follow the flow . . . the force is strong in me.

As a side note: Funny you should mention counting syllables . . . My “Atomic Candle” ‘poem' (politely ignored by all – which is why I respect all of you) had the syllables counted and posted. I was trying sooo hard. OK, I said I'd keep it short.

Well as long as you remember that me being able to speak of the heart of songwriting is not the same as me actually being able to do it, I'm okay.

The other thing I said I realized was true when David I were sitting at the dining room table at "Andante" and speaking of how it seems without music we write lyrics in couplets. I said something about the lines being the same length syllabically because you couldn't hear the rhythm to write the lyric any other way. Or something like that. Uh, and that was only because there was no football on TV, yeah, that's the ticket.

Here is what I said:

I used to think that having matching syllabic count was soooooo important. Not so. Having matching lyrical phrases is much more so.

Let me elaborate a bit. It might be a good exercise to purposefully write some verses with un-equal line length. Next get a backing track and try to sing those lines, at least rhythmically, (not necessarily melodically), and make them match. That will force you to use empty space, holding notes or making them staccato to match the phrases. Once you understand this, you can see that rhyme remains important, matching phrases in time is important, but matching the number of syllables is pretty much irrelevant. I don't think one should go off the deep end with this, but I do think it's important.

Rewind.....about five years or so.....

Vic Lewis, sitting at desk, guitar in hand. In front of him, a sheet of paper with a song on it. Vic's just finished these lyrics - now he's putting them to music. At least he's trying to put them to music. He has the melody floating in his head - he just needs to find the right chords. Trouble is, he doesn't know that many chords - and he knows nothing about scales or keys, either. In fact, all the musical theory he knows could be written on the back of a (small) postage stamp with a (large) paintbrush, and still leave dancing room. So he sighs, puts the guitar down and googles "online guitar lessons"...........

Fast forward - to now....

Same person, sitting at desk, different guitar. In front of him, a sheet of paper with song lyrics on. In his hand, a red pen - he's writing down the chords to the lyrics. They're written in black ink. There are scribbled notes in the margin - plenty of them, little ideas and thoughts he's had while writing down the lyrics. Some changes, not many. He sits back, smug grin on face and begins to play.

The difference between then and now? Roughly five years of hard work has gone into his guitar playing. He's picked up quite a bit of theory, a lot of chords, and more importantly, had a LOT of helpful advice over those five years. Now he knows almost instinctively which chords are going to work - he knows how to make the music fit the mood of the lyrics. He's also worked hard on the writing - over the last few years, he's written a lot of songs and read the feedback on them. He's also read literally hundreds and hundreds of other songs in that time - taken them to pieces and found out what made them work. Read a lot of critiques, too, from folks who know about these things - and he's LEARNED. He's still learning every day.....

Reads almost like a novel, doesn't it? Except every word of it's true, and Nick's articles helped a LOT. I'd written songs before the SSG - trouble was, they all read the same. Or sounded the same. Or read AND sounded the same.

I look back now on those early SSG efforts and compare them to now, and it's almost as if they were written by two separate people. Those early songs may have had a good line or two in them, but they're pretty forgettable for the most part - not fully thought out, not fully realised.

One of Nick's suggestions/rules/guidelines stuck out from day one - make a list of words relating to the topic. The next song I wrote, I opened the Thesaurus - got a list of about 20 words all along the same theme. Ever since then, that Thesaurus has been on my desk - or close to it. I don't always use it, but it's there in case I need it, and more often than not, I do need it.

One thing I've always done, though, without exception, is tried to put the lyrics I've come up with to music. I haven't always recorded the finished song - but out of the hundred-plus SSG songs I've written, there are only about three or four that don't have music for them. I've often found I've had to change lyrics around to suit music - I've tried to make the music fit the lyrics, but I've had to mess around with the lyrics to fit the music. Experimentation, trial and error, tweaking, fine tuning - I've done it for almost every song.

I used to think I could only write about one subject - me. "Write about what you know" was a piece of advice I took to heart. Then, as I began to write more, I realised I could write about other subjects. That's down, I think, to practise - constantly thinking of new ideas, recycling old ideas. If I hear a well-rounded phrase in a conversation, I'll think, "hmm, how can I fit that in a song?" I'm constantly writing down little snippets, or words, or ideas in a little notebook I carry everywhere.

I may be wandering a little off-subject here; I tend to pour out thoughts as they come to me. Like I do when writing lyrics - I've very rarely started a song with more than a vague idea of how it's going to end up. But rest assured, I do have a few assignments in mind along the lines of what Nick was suggesting - because the ultimate goal always has to be - for a would-be songwriter, anyway! - to write a song, and lyrics are only one part of songwriting - music's the other half.

I've said it before, I'll say it again - songwriting's like any other musical discipline. It has to be worked at, practised, polished, honed - and the harder you work on it, the easier it'll become. The more you put into it, the more satisfaction you'll get out of it. I get immense pleasure from playing guitar - the more I play and learn, and the better I get, the more pleasure I get out of it. It's the same with songwriting - I'm still learning, but the more I write, the better I get - and the enjoyment factor, the thrill of bringing your ideas to life, increases exponentially.

Still playing, still writing, still learning - and still willing to learn, and work at it. Anyone else along for the ride?

:D :D :D

Vic

Dylan and I both picked up a guitar (for the first time) just over a year ago. I'm not speaking for Dylan but I ask whatever decisions or course of action taken (as the result of the proposed discussion) to consider us beginners. I'm easily intimidated by the years of experience most of you have.

Hi Ken,

When I started to try and learn guitar I was not that far off 60, I'm now 61. I have other work to do and other hobbies, plus I've never got around to anything as respectable as a practice schedule or system of any kind. I've just noodled my way through. I'm certainly better now at ‘talking the talk' but I'm still very ropey indeed at ‘walking the walk'. It's folks like you and me that I have in mind here.

I thought that Nick suggestions about providing part of the picture and getting us to fill in the rest could be an excellent learning tool for all of us at any level. Vic's assignment this week, by appearing to narrow down the boundless empty page to ‘only' four chords, proved to be liberating rather than restricting. I've written two contrasting songs already, and one is completely different from my usual style.

When I started out it took me months of graft to get my left hand capable of forming three or four clumsy chords.... then I discovered that my right hand had no idea how to turn that into music.... then it turned out that I had no decent sense of rhythm.... and later I found out that I hadn't a clue how to sing either.... and so on.. But slowly I've at least been able to identify what some of the needed elements are, and I've found ways of supporting or replacing the bits I can't yet perform, whilst I work on it all. Backing tracks, software, looping, cutting and pasting, there's lots of ways to cobble up a framework to let me work on another part. A completely blank slate is dauntingly hard to fill, let alone week after week. :wink:

Cheers,

Chris

Well as long as you remember that me being able to speak of the heart of songwriting is not the same as me actually being able to do it, I'm okay.

But on the other hand I've heard recordings of you singing songs that you wrote yourself, so I know what you can do.... :wink: But I know what you mean though, having guru status thrust on you can be a pain in the backside, even Shakespeare and Mozart needed the freedom to do ordinary passages some of the time.
Here is what I said:
I used to think that having matching syllabic count was soooooo important. Not so. Having matching lyrical phrases is much more so.
Let me elaborate a bit. It might be a good exercise to purposefully write some verses with un-equal line length. Next get a backing track and try to sing those lines, at least rhythmically, (not necessarily melodically), and make them match. That will force you to use empty space, holding notes or making them staccato to match the phrases. Once you understand this, you can see that rhyme remains important, matching phrases in time is important, but matching the number of syllables is pretty much irrelevant. I don't think one should go off the deep end with this, but I do think it's important.
That perfectly nails what I think is one of the crucial aspects of songwriting. Whether June matches Moon, or how long the lines 'look' are among the least important aspects - they're just the easiest to see on a page, so they get more attention than they should. It's about how the singer and instrumentalist make it work together that counts.

Unless you're pretty much a pro it's a big ask to come up with a set of new lyrics, a fresh melody, an appropriate rhythm, and then to produce it all at a standard that the poster can feel comfortable with. So not many people seem to attempt it - despite the fact that I'm betting that just about every member who ever joined GN has harboured a secret dream of one day writing, playing and singing their own song. I think that the idea of (at least some weeks) providing part of the puzzle, a framework to hang the target aspect on, would be well worth trying (although that does mean more work for somebody....).

Chris

The difference between then and now? Roughly five years of hard work has gone into his guitar playing. He's picked up quite a bit of theory, a lot of chords, and more importantly, had a LOT of helpful advice over those five years. Now he knows almost instinctively which chords are going to work - he knows how to make the music fit the mood of the lyrics. He's also worked hard on the writing - over the last few years, he's written a lot of songs and read the feedback on them. He's also read literally hundreds and hundreds of other songs in that time - taken them to pieces and found out what made them work. Read a lot of critiques, too, from folks who know about these things - and he's LEARNED. He's still learning every day.....

...

Still playing, still writing, still learning - and still willing to learn, and work at it. Anyone else along for the ride?

:D :D :D

Vic

Well put Vic. :D

It's definitely not a quick thing to achieve. Even when you 'get' an idea behind something it can still take weeks or even years to develop the skills to be able to physically carry out what you've understood mentally. That's pretty much the thinking behind my support for Nick's suggestions. It's more work for somebody, so it may be too much to ask, but having some weeks where SSG members are given part of the picture and asked to fill in the rest could be very useful.

Here's a few thoughts to be shot at by all and sundry:

Writing a song usual requires several elements, including such things as:

Lyrics
Melody and Harmony
Rhythm
Structure
Production, arrangement, etc

How could SSG address some of these, other than by suggesting topics for lyrics?

Rhythm:

One of the things that was emphasized when I looked at drums, and read a book or two, was how crucial rhythm is to a song. Exactly the same 4 chords from SSG7 Wk1 could be used for anything from punk to rock to syrupy ballad by changing the rhythm. There's no sense of the beat when you look at bare words on a page, yet it's vitally important. Reading drum books, and looking at the loops provided in various bits of hardware and software quickly showed that there are ‘standard' beat styles that can be looped and used to give a pretty much instant feel of Rock, Country, Jazz, Dance, Blues etc. The loop section are usually labelled as such. So perhaps we could assemble a handful of basic ‘drum songs' in the more popular styles (if they're not already readily available somewhere?). They can be reused many times and also have no key signature to worry about. For instance, there seems to be a ‘standard rock beat' of high hat eighth notes, bass drum on the 1 and 3, and snare on the ‘backbeat' 2 and 4. It's supposedly the backbone behind hundreds of popular songs. These can be built on with increasing complexity, but as a learning tool they can be quite simple yet still very effective.

Melody and Harmony:

Heaps of ways of doing this. From your SSG7 Wk1 “Take these four chords”... through to ‘Here's an mp3 of a song with guitar doing the chords and a keyboard picking out the melody line, now write some lyrics, or maybe just a verse, or a chorus to match the feel and flow of that melody line.

Or maybe something like “Here's an mp3 of some lyrics, sung with just a single note melody line to support it. Here's a list of 3 basic chords, and two fancier ones that you can use any or all of to play along. You choose which chords to play where, in what fashion, and how often.” It would be especially good if there was a picture of the lyrics, bar by bar, over the TAB and notation.

Singing:

“Oh but I can't sing!” say half the crew..... Yes you can. At the very least you can learn to talk in time. I just joined a community choir so that I could practice singing while hiding under the blanket of other singing. When we tackle a new song the choirmaster often has us ‘rap' through it first. We ignore pitch, no singing just rapping, and concentrate on nailing the rhythmic feel of the song. Learning the way to articulate the words, to separate them out clearly and crisply or alternatively run them together smoothly as required by the song style.

Anybody who insist they can't sing can still get their song across by rapping the rhythm for us. At the every least they can bang out the beat on the desk and hum or mumble.. and work their way up from there.

Starting at my age, I'm not going to be able to turn out pro standard work in the available time, but I've found that by using music software for support I can assemble a perfectly usable dummy song, played by a 'virtual band', while I practice the bit that I want to (such as singing, strumming, experimenting with different ways of delivering a lyric, or whatever). Why bother with a mere metronome when you can now get the computer to do everything but sing the song for you?

Cheers,

Chris

Well put Chris. I also agree that what we are doing here isn't really suggesting a topic for SSG. SSG is in Vic's capable hands. This is more of a discovery process that we are discussing.

Vic, I can read that story over and over again. I think it's every bit as gratifying to me as to you. That's what SSG was supposed to do. If it influenced, modified, helped create a song that has been played anywhere it makes me proud. I know I've played gigs with Kathy and David where we've all played a song that wouldn't exist without the SSG. The contributions of all the SSGers along the way and now your leadership are an integral part of all of those songs.

Have you ever played Sudoku? It's a number logic puzzle where you can only have one of each number 1-9 per row, column and box. It's addictive as all get out. Each time you fill in one number, you can see where some other number goes. Everything you do in the puzzle contributes to the completion of the puzzle. At the easy or beginner level it's pretty simple to see, "Hey if this is over there, it can't be there, so it must be here". When you get to the advanced levels though, that doesn't happen very often. Sometimes you get stumped and have to look at the big picture to solve the smaller pieces. The thought process may go, "Well this row needs a 1, 3, and 5 and it can't be in either of those two boxes because they already have them somewhere else. That row has a 1 so it must be either three or five. That means the 1 must be in a different box of that same row. It can't be in that box so it must be in one of these two spaces of this one on the bottom, but I don't know which, but if it must be on the bottom of that box, and it's in the middle of that one, it must be on the top of this one. It can't go there so it must go here". If you haven't played it that will make no sense at all. Go google and get back to me. Anyway, that's what I think we are doing here. Sometimes it's okay to start with just writing words in a vaccuum. But sometimes you have to look at what you expect the song to be in order to solve the lyrical problem of what goes where. For instance, you are writing country music, pop, a ballad, a love song, up tempo etc. Knowing a bit about where everything will fit in the box when you are done, helps you define each individual part.

It is definitely not that I'm brilliant about these things, like everyone else I pound my head against the process until I discover a shortcut, a way of thinking, a don't be stupid nick, or a why didn't you do this before? Everybody else's process may be different, but beginner or old hand your input into the process may save someone a lot of time. Sometimes we lose the ability to see the simple solutions the more experienced we become, so Ken and Dylan please feel free to chime in. Your contributions are valuable. Maybe you try some of these suggestions, maybe they don't work, maybe they work better if you do them this way. Everybody's contribution is valuable. If it makes you feel any better I feel like a complete poser telling anyone how to write anything with Kathy and David on this board.

Vic made an excellent point earlier, and Chris is spot on about the drums. Every song you write for SSG, or for anything, you should write with either a melody or rhythm in your head. If you can't start with that, then go out and get a backing track, or record some chords into your PC and listen to them as you write. If can't write like that ,then at least promise yourself that once those words are put to paper, you play whatever chords you know, just like in this week's assignment and you speak the words, or sing the words so you can find their hidden meter and make your lyrics match.

I'm not sure how or if this fits in the SSG. it seems almost a blend of writing, composing, and performing. What strikes me as important about Vic's comment on every song should be written with the intent of a peformance, private or public, is that a lyric is part of a bigger picture that involves all of the pieces above. Looking at Chris's earlier post I think you can break lyrics down into that format too.

Lyrics have to:

Be part rhythm section, they have a familiar pattern, a riff from section to section.
Rhyme, satisfying the listener's expectation
Emote, through not just words, but empty spaces, held notes, dynamics and speed
Be performed, they aren't written to be left on a page. How you would perform them might force you to change how you wrote them.

I could be wrong. :D

This is a terrific discussion and I'd first like to echo Nick's thoughts that everyone who contributes to the SSG is making all of this work. You never turn down a chance to play with someone, regardless of his or her playing experience, because you can always learn something. And it's very much the same here. The weeks I'm most disappointed in my own performance here at the SSG are not those when I don't write anything, but rather those when I don't make even a single critique.

Think about what happens with, especially in a live performance. Your listeners do not have lyric sheets. They have between three and four minutes to take in a song and form an opinion about it. If you hear a two hour show and have a handful of songs running through your head, that's pretty good. If you go to an open mic and hear someone do three original songs and you find yourself singing one all the next day, that's really good.

It's important to remember that songs aren't always about something. Sometimes they are vehicles for performance, sometimes they are simply there to get people dancing. Sometimes they are about conveying an emotion and sometimes they are about a specific message. Sometimes you get everything in one song.

A well crafted song is rarely an accident. It's the result of a couple hundred thousand songs written along the way. Okay, that's exaggeration, but not entirely.

It's also important to remember that whatever you intend a song to be, all bets are off when its heard by other people. Interpretation is always the job of the listener and the writer can only do so much. So if you want someoone to get a specific message, you have to either spell it out or do your best to give your listener as good a map as possible to get to the same place you are.

That's why the critique process of SSG is just as, if not more, important than the song writing part. Everyone hears things differently. Getting as much personal feedback ("...I like this because / I didn't like this because...") is just as important as getting objective feedback ("you might want to use a different word here if that's what you meant..."). Being able to give a personal critique is not a matter of experience. It's a matter of caring enough about the craft to discuss it.

Plus, there's almost no better way to improve your own writing than to watch what people can do by improving theirs. The songs I've enjoyed quite a bit are the ones that have evolved while you watch. It's thrilling to be part of that process.

Like Nick, Vic, Kathy, and everyone else here, I participate in the SSG to improve my skills. Despite what you may think, I need to work on them as much as everyone. I can't thank you enough for making me work except to thank you for making me better every time.

Peace

Just as an aside - not even the greats get it right all the time. There was a song on the radio this afternoon - remember the band Bread, whose singer/songwriter was David Gates? Huge back in the early 70's - David's "If" was a top 10 hit not only for Bread, but a couple of years later a huge #1 hit for Telly Savalas, then at the height of his fame and starring in Kojak. Anyway, one part of that song - "If" - goes like this.....

"If a man could be two places at one time,
I'd be with you,
tomorrow and today,
beside you all the way . . ."

I wonder how long that song would have lasted on the SSG before someone pointed out that he'd actually be in one place at two different times, not two places at one time?

:D :D :D

Vic

LOL

Right, but it would still be a top ten hit today.

"If a man could be two places at one time,
I'd be with you,
tomorrow and today,
beside you all the way . . ."

I wonder how long that song would have lasted on the SSG before someone pointed out that he'd actually be in one place at two different times, not two places at one time?

:D :D :D

Vic
I'm thinking about this aloud . . .
if he could be in two places at one time he would be with her . . .
which is the same place . . . as he was the first time.
Therefore he didn't get anywhere that he wasn't before.

Now, if he wished he could be two times in one place, then both times he would be with her . . . doubling the time he spent with her.
Did I get that right?

Hi again,

Thanks to everybody for all the interesting contributions and opinions so far. :D

Just one more rant from me, but with more concrete examples.

I can't really claim to be a complete beginner any more, but I'm definitely right down the bottom end of mediocre. I can play a fairly small handful of chords and that's about it. But I absolutely love being able to muck around with songs, so I'll use every tool that I can to make up for the huge range of things that I can't do. I can also learn software faster than I can develop the physical skills to play an instrument, so I'll use that when I can too.

A couple of weeks ago I posted a submission for SSG6 Week40. I knew I wouldn't have the time (or talent) to write a complete original song like some members here can. So I took an existing traditional song – Black Velvet Band – and wrote new words for it. SSG6 Wk40 -Is That The Time Already?.

However, I still weaseled out of actually recording it. :oops: But at least I knew that the words would be singable, and would match some music, even if it wasn't mine. So there's a possible SSG angle that might encourage more beginners – take this song (provide a backing track, youtube link, or an mp3) and rewrite the words on a different theme.

But I did keep going with it, and this might be able to help other beginners too.

First I went to a traditional music site and downloaded a midi file – just to get something to work from. I pinched the basic melody line and bass track from that and dragged it into Finale Notepad. Then I added a very simple drum line – it couldn't be more basic, but it gave me a beat to follow and a clue where the bars were. I doubled the melody line into each hand on the piano line, and wrote in some very basic chords for the guitar. None of this was what a player of any of the instruments would actually do – and they'd all wince to see it – but it gave me something to practice singing against. In Finale it looks like this:

I then took a new midi from Finale. This sounds terrible in a default player, but not so bad if you have midi player with a decent sound engine.

Short midi of the start

Then I dragged that into Garage Band, which has some quite reasonable virtual instrument sounds and added a couple of audio tracks of actual guitar playing. To speed it up you can play just one verse and one chorus and copy it along (which I did). I also added a short burst from the ‘horn section' in the second half of the middle chorus. This is just getting the trumpets to play the melody line, but it gave me a great deal of childish pleasure when I heard it (and still does :mrgreen: ).

Then I tried singing it. The take you can hear is a first attempt at recording it, so it's got plenty of mistakes, including losing my volume, fumbling words, and so on. But that's rather the point – it's a learning tool. So rather than go for a better ‘vanity take' to post, it's here warts and all. Then I sang the chorus again. You can double up guitar or voice with a few mouse clicks, but you get a better sound if you do two recordings. The fractional differences fill out the sound more (tip given me by a pro at this stuff).

Is That the Time Already Mp3. Size 3.25mb

So there we are. It's pretty ordinary stuff, but it allowed an old fart with very limited performance skills to write and record a song. Pretty much just what I think Nick was getting at with his suggestion of providing backing track or at least some of the pieces.

Who knows, give me another five years and I might redo it and make a decent job of it by then…

But in the meantime, it works for me anyway. :wink:

Cheers,

Chris

OK, I went back and read what you said Vic.
Today and tomorrow being the two different times . . .
got it.
Yes, if he would be with her (same place) at two different times.

I was thinking more along the lines of a space/time paradox, conundrum, enigma, type situation . . .
Sorry

That's a classic, Chris and just happened to be the song I was thinking of when I posted my comment on your Y7,W1 SSG song.
It's the one I thought you should change the word "handsome" to "brilliant" to make it punnier.
And darn you, you wouldn't . . . I know, you were setting up the next verse.
OK, well now you need to change it to "most handsome" you needed an extra syllable (or 2) in there.

As Scrybe would say, "Brilliant fun".
Glad you finally put music to it.
Of course I didn't understand half the process you went through but . . .
I'm glad you did.