Yr6/Wk30 She Has Funny Cups

I'm glad to hear it works out . . .
but I'm trying to picture
how you fit that book in the cup that I can't see
(above the sink
with a smile and a wink :wink: )

I'm trying to picture
how you fit that book in the cup that I can't see

That's easy ~ The cup is only half full.... (or is it only half empty? :? )

And the book has really small words.

But I wouldn't worry about it, since you can't see it anyway :wink:

Ken

also, I find it marvellous how one cup becomes two. that's magic, ken! :wink:
more seriously: it's a beautiful little snapshot, and I like the "happy". it fits well. but still doesn't really end so happily :wink: which is no minus at all. I like it a lot.

cheers,
straycat.

I like the idea behind the song, Ken, but it's going to take a bit of work.....

The first stanza's fine - nothing wrong at all. Sets the scene, I want to know why these objects are where they are and why they're there.

Second stanza - cup, and cups, two lines after you've last used the word. Hmmm - bit too much repetition there for me.

Third stanza, you've got the ring hidden away - but no mention of the watch and chain or the book.

Fourth stanza, we've got cups - in the plural.

So there are a few obvious lyrical contradictions......

First stanza, I'd maybe think of changing the last line....from "in a cup that you can't see" to maybe "somewhere you can't see...." remembering that cups in the plural are going to come into the equation sooner or later, and thinking ahead and trying to avoid repetition.

maybe......

"I got a watch and a chain
and a book and a ring
that I keep above the sink
somewhere you can't see"

and thinking ahead to the second stanza, maybe reverse the order of the last two lines.....

"I got a watch and a chain
and a book and a ring
somewhere you can't see
above the sink"

Second stanza, as I said, you only mention the ring - but introduce plurality. Maybe, instead of.....

"I keep the ring hidden away............
in a cup that you can't see
the cups that look like you and me
with a smile and a wink"

Something like.....

"I keep them hidden away,
From prying eyes,
In those cups that look like us,
with a smile and a wink"

Now you've got "wink" at the end of the first verse rhyming with "sink" at the end of the second, and we've got rid of the repetition.....

OK, third verse/stanza/whatever.....

"it's all that I got left
that's all that you left me
it's all that I got left
just two cups that are empty"

Hmmmm, lot of "all" there - and the cups aren't empty, there's a watch and a ring and a chain in there.....

maybe something like,

"Now all that I have left,
from when I had plenty,
Is out of sight,
Where they can't tempt me...."

Then - the final section would fit nicely. Might need to change the wording slightly - maybe

"Those cups, once full of dreams,
Those cups, they look so......"

(I'd definitely go with the dots, leave the reader/listener wanting more....)

Ken, I'm slightly annoyed that such an intelligent person as yourself, who's given good advice quite frequently, has had such a good idea for a song, but hasn't bothered working on it....and this could be really good if you worked it out. It feels like it's been written by a different person to the one who's written out so many well-thought out, reasoned replies to so many questions on these forums.....or maybe you just had the idea, and dashed off a few lines to see what kind of feedback you got?

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, this time - but I would like to hear this song properly developed, sung and played. And don't worry about the singing, I've been getting away with it for years. Dylan, even longer......

Good luck my friend.....just put a bit more thought into it. Analyse what you're writing. (The above critique is me in analytical mode - after all, what's the point in offering advice unless it's CONSTRUCTIVE advice?Above all, be more self-critical - if you don't like what you've written, who the hell else is going to?

Work on the song - the idea's good, just not fully brought to fruition - it deserves better. Especially from YOU!

(Ummm, that's me in "schoolmarm" mode.....don't mean to be harsh, and I apologise in advance if it seems like I'm nitpicking, but I'm getting a bit tired of trotting out the same old cliches time after time - this is me trying to be honest, but helpful.)

Hope this helps.....

:D :D :D

Vic

oh good, Vic is giving better comments :)
if you keep on working on this, it'll get from "i like it a lot" to "i like it a lot and it is well-thought-through/written-out" :D

sorry, i'm dead-beat, i need some sleep, my comments are useless. you're lucky that vic is still up and working at maximum power :)
good luck improving this!
cheers,
straycat.

Okay.... Not a whole lot of time here; Harm is graduating tonight!

Though, not to leave you all hanging :wink:

Thankx to KR for inspiring the title.... I was thinking: Not only does it read funny, it gets funny replies! :P
So, it started out as just: Funny Cups.
Couldn't resist a play on words with the old J. Airplane song though :wink:
And of course, since the cups are mine.... Seemingly furthur contradictions???? :twisted:

And to Anne.... Thankx for stayin' up! :wink:

And to Vic.... Great reply! 8)
Thankx!

I did end up using one of your lines with a slight mod.
Fits perfectly.... and I was really not liking the lines I had there.
Thankx again!

Now, to be honest, when I first wrote what's here, I saw the first two 'verses' as a bridge.... and the last one as a chorus.
Needed the main body though.
Couldn't come up with one.... and I kinda like the cryptic feel of how it is.

I must admit; it is quite a departure from my usual 'style' I guess.

I do have it set to music and melody though, and I'm pretty certain that what is now - the first two verses, are 'in the can'.

Here's the story:

I was sitting around thinking about everything that I had 'lost' in my divorce.... Both tangible and Non-Tangible.
And so I got to wondering what had I actually walked away with....?

The first thing that came to mind was a fathers day gift from Harm: The [pocket] watch and chain.

The next was a book that Mel had gotten me about Citizen Kane.

Sorry to dissapoint, but neither of those are in either of those tiny cups! LOL!

Those items (with the addition of a small collection of 30's & 40's lighters - from Mel) are pretty much all I have to show that
I was married.

The ring is obviously my wedding ring.
And yes, I keep it in one of two (his and hers) cups.

The odd thing about the way the lyrics go, is that it starts out like I'm talking to myself.... then move to me
speaking to somebody else (Mel).
Though I'm not really talking to her directly.
(It's a play on that old Dylan trick of shifting From 1st person to 3rd person and back again)

So, it starts out with me 'telling' that I keep my wedding ring in 'A cup' above the sink (pushed back on the top of the cabinets out of sight)
Since I'm 'talking to Mel', I then say - The cups that look like you and me - she now knows WHAT cup specifically that I keep my ring in.
Before the 'cups' line, the cup was just anonomous.... Now it has a DEEP meaning (To us anyway, as the cups in question were special to us) :wink:

The way those first two verses get sung is: First one with a low droning almost depressed voice; The second with a higher voice.
It seems to make the repitition work out okay - At least that's how I hear it as the singer :roll:

Hope that sheds a little bit of light on why it is the way it is.

I'll see if I can dash off an acceptable demo version Vic, and send the Mp3 your way in an email....
I've got a picture I want to send ya too; and a question.

Ken :D

oh good, Vic is giving better comments

LOL - now I'm not sure how to take THAT!

I've not looked at the SSG for a week or so, to be honest - I just got a little tired of the same old stuff. I thought the break might do me good. I thought, "what's the point of telling Celt or Straycat or Chefie or Katreich I love what they're doing, if I can't analyse WHY I like it?" Sometimes a "Hey, I like it!" is enough - but if someone's offering lyrics for feedback, the least I can do is actually analyse why I like/don't like them. Or tell them why I DO like the songs......

To take the above-mentioned people.....

Celt's been around a while. He writes simple, blues based songs that anyone can relate to - but somehow, he's got the knack of writing lyrics that feel as if they were tailored for me. Everything he's written, I can relate to as if it were part of my life.

Chefie has a unique voice - Mr Hodge once described it as soothing - that carries the emotions of his songs across to the listener. He can get carried away at times, and write "War And Peace" when all that's needed is a potboiler. But hey, that's OK - he's always a good listen, and always comes across with some nice acoustic guitar.

Katreich is - well, she's one of the best female singer/songwriters (and I'm not sure that phrase even needs the qualifying word "female") there is, in my opinion. I love her voice, I love the way she can write what may seem on at first glance as fairly ordinary lyrics but come up with a couple of killer lines, and wring every ounce of emotion out of a song.

Straycat's the hardest one of the above to categorise. For someone who speaks German, not English, as her lingua franca (did you see what I did there!) she puts those of us who speak English as the mother tongue to shame....I've never known anyone with such a grasp of poetic imagery, and she uses it so well.

I've had some good feedback on my songs for quite a while - but next to these people, and others I haven't mentioned, I feel like a fumbling hack. I've written about 90 songs for the SSG since June '04, and of those, roughly about a third are keepers. Of that third, I've recorded - demo-style - about half of them, as for the other half, I'm still waiting for my musical skills to catch up and do the songs justice - or at least, be able to play them the way I hear them in my head.

Anyway, the point I'm making is, it's not enough to say you like or dislike a song - you've got to know WHY you like or dislike said song. That's the whole point of this forum, innit?

So, I'll stick around, and I'll try and give comments on why - or why not - a song works for ME. As always, it's just my opinion - but it will be a well-thought out reasoned opinion. At least I hope it will be! I'd like to get the same on my work......

:D :D :D

Vic

Oh, and now as I've fnished that little (?) ramble, Mr Noir's posted again.....

Yes, it does make sense - or at least more sense - now, but I'm a great believer in not having to explain what you've written - unless you're a Dylan, or a Lennon, it should be fairly obvious what the point of the song is.

And yes, it reads better now I understand the 1st/3rd person trick.....but bear in mind, about 95% of the public don't actually give two hoots what lyrics actually mean. They just want something that slides comfortably off the tongue - and if you're going to write with the "public" in mind, you might as well write something that Westlife or Britney Spears would sing. I made a decision at the start of this SSG year that I wasn't going to post any lyrics I wasn't 100% happy with - I want to improve my writing, branch out, diversify. Thanks to the kind feedback I've got from this forum, I've already improved (I think so anyway - when I look at some of my early writings, I cringe!) and I want to improve even more - maybe it's not in my capabilities to be the best guitarist in the world ever, but I don't see why I can't write lyrics anyone can relate to....and I don't see why anyone else can't, either. Words are free, and they're all around us very day - it's just a matter of kidnapping a few good ones, and using them......

:D :D :D

Vic

Maybe something like this will get it back on track
Dunno, I'm just passing through in the cosmic scheme of things . . .

We Had Funny Cups

Two coffee cups placed
On a shelf above the sink
Yours with a smile :)
Mine with a wink :wink:

Two coffee cups hidden
Mine containing nothing
Yours with a promise
In the form of a ring

It's all I have left
It's all that you left me
Just two funny cups
Mine is the one empty . . .
Save for a memory

Edit added:
Sorry, I posted this before I read the posts above.
(Man, you guys posted that stuff fast . . . I was out walking the dog . . . working the words in my head)
Funny thing is, I wrote it with a wedding ring in mind. . .
but I was picturing it as HER ring in HER cup.
I hope you don't mind me taking the liberty

LOL - now I'm not sure how to take THAT!
No offence, Vic, I meant your feedback was better than mine :lol:
And I do agree with you that constructive feedback and giving reasons/analyze is great. Sometimes I just can't say more than I like this or don't like that... (and then I think at least letting them know it was read and liked is better than not replying at all) .. I'll try to improve my feedback :wink:
oh, and the bit about "kidnapping" a few words- beautifully said :)

Ken, thanks for the explanations. I have to admit that I didn't get the 1st/3rd person shift with the cup/cups.. but for me it doesn't hurt a song I like if I don't get every line. Although it does feel nice to get it :wink:
As for your re-write:
it reads better in the sense that it's more coherent, it guides the reader/listener more. I'm sure you have it worked out to fit your melody well, but just reading it I wonder about the last two lines (btw great meaningful lines) .. to my ears ithey would flow better as something like "And mine is empty, save for memories" .. just a thought. (I shouldn't talk about matters of flow- my own stuff always tends to be chaotic :lol: )
So, I think your re-write is very well done and feels much more complete/round/whatev! I did love the line of the cups looking "look like you and me" in your first version (cute!), but it really is not lacking in your re-write.

cheers,
straycat.

As for your re-write:
I did love the line of the cups looking "look like you and me" in your first version (cute!), but it really is not lacking in your re-write.

cheers,
straycat.

Not to worry Anne.... That line is staying.
I only re-wrote one line (Thankx again Vic 8) )

I think you may be thinking that KR's re-working was mine....?

Ken :wink:

Okay....
First off; I'd like to thank everyone for taking the time, and for their replies/re-writes/& critiques.
I am really enjoying this! :D

Second ~ Since Vic has decided to be more constructive, I think it only fair that I contribute to the building effort as well.
I have quite a lot of ground to cover.... Hopefully my mind will hold out and I wont forget anything before I finish :roll:
I'll probably ramble a bit.... Apologies in advance.

Third ~ Sorry for my atrocious spelling and grammer (especially in the above posts!).

Starting out:
Both KR and Vic have said something to the effect of my explanations - 'If you have to explain a joke....'
Meaning that since I had to explain the meaning behind my lyrics, they must be by default: Ineffective.

Well, let me explain :P

The thing is, if I were a celebrity songwriter with an adoring fan base.... Would I bother to explain my lyrics....?
The answer is, of course - NO!

You all here are not my adoring fan base.... 90% of which would just be mindnumbingly singing along to my catchy melody
without even noticing that they know the lyrics!
Another 5% being the FANnatics who would try to analyze my lyrics, and based on what they know about me thru tabloid mags and unauthorized biographies, would feel that they surely knew where I was coming from.
Of course, they would more than likely have it all wrong.... and that would be alright.
The last 5% would be the ones who morph the lyrics to mean something to them.... And that's cool! 8)
(KR's thinking that 'spectral' in another of my songs meant 'many colored' instead of 'ghostly' like I inteded.... or his thinking that the ring in this song was 'hers' and not mine like I had inteded.... all wonderful! :D )

No, this is a songwriting forum, and I have submited my lyrics to be critiqued by all of you.
When you don't understand the lyrics, the meaning, the motivation.... Can you really give an effective critique????
It didn't seem so to me.
So I offered a deeper understanding, to YOU only.

Vic said something like - 'Unless you are a Lennon or a Dylan, your lyrics should be easy enough to understand'

Just one question about that.... WHY????

Why can't WE aspire to write like NOT ONLY Lennon or Dylan, but MOST of our favorite songs????
How many songs do we all know, love, & adore that we haven't a CLUE as to what they are really about????
TONS!

And frankly, I find [that], one of my chief concerns around here....
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I DO NOT like to be led to a table and hand fed all the answers like I'm some kind of a dottering, toothless, arthritic old man in a wheel chair!
There HAS to be some mystery and some craft!
Art is not answers.... On the contrary, it should make you think and question and strive TO know.

Ken

Yep, lyrics can be like women;
they can keep you guessing.
Or as others would say,
they have an "air of mystery".

A lot to be said for making lyrics somewhat cryptic.

Craft:

Vic wrote:

"I got a watch and a chain
and a book and a ring
that I keep above the sink
in a cup that you can't see"

and thinking ahead to the second stanza, maybe reverse the order of the last two lines.....

"I got a watch and a chain
and a book and a ring
somewhere you can't see
above the sink"

First off.... I don't know if it's just that I know the melody of the original, but to me; The rewrite just falls off.... it doesn't flow anymore.

Secondly (and most importantly): The way I have the 'order' is correct as far as I'm concerned.
To me, being a Chicagoan, and a Blues fan; music (in this case lyrically speaking) makes great use of 'call and response';
or as it is sometimes called - 'Question and Answer' or 'Tension and Release'.

"I got a ring, somewhere above the sink"
[That] leaves you hanging.... It's not in the form of a question, though as the reader/listener, you should be 'asking' yourself
a question about it.... It has effectively created 'tension'.

Response/Answer/Resolution - "In a cup that you can't see"
Ahhhhhhh.... :)

The rewrite has the answer before the question.

If you look at it from a cinemaphotographer/movie director POV, then I have it set up in a very Hitchcockian sort of a way
(Think of the begining of psycho), or Orson Welles' shot in Citizen Kane when he goes thru the skylight....
You anticipate seeing a ring.... You move from floor level to looking above the sink on top of the cabinets....
And there! In the Cups....
See how that works????

I mean, I like playing with structure just fine.

Here's something I wrote several years ago while trying to carve out an 'original' writing style.
It's about my grappling with alcoholism.
(Looking at it now; There are a few things that I'd like to change yet :twisted: )('Convention' was never right)

beyond convention lies a force
dark and determined
a whirling vortex
granting to those without a soul
sanctuary
in somber asylum
the influential and zealous depression that rages at it's heart
sweeps away the uttering untruths and deliberate falsehoods
with a striking voracity

This is about the SIXTH draft!

I think it started out - 'A place where the soulless have gathered to find sanctuary in the asylum'

Then I got the first three lines and was still trying to sort out the 'soulless' part....
It then became: 'gathering the souless together'
Then: 'granting sanctuary to the soulless in somber asylum'
Then: 'granting sanctuary to those without a soul in somber asylum'
Liking those 'words', I then 'switched' some around, and viola!
Granting to those without a soul: sanctuary; in somber asylum.

Vic wrote "Now you've got "wink" at the end of the first verse rhyming with "sink" at the end of the second....

If I could give one piece of advice about songwriting.... It's: Pick up that paper with all the 'RULES' on it, crumple it up, and toss it in the fireplace!

Sure, it's a bit easier to write a song when you follow a 'Formula'.... Like: write in four line verses and rhyme the last word
on the 2 and 4 lines.... do that twice, and then put in a chorus. Then a third verse structured like the first two.... then a bridge (because the song is too long and needs a change), then repeat chorus and fade.
Instant hit!

Maybe.

Or maybe it'll end up sounding like a 7th grader wrote it.

In a lot of my lyrics, I reach to transcend 'childish' rhyming....
I employ what some would call 'forced rhymes'.
That is: Words that are seemingly similar in sound, though not nec. rhymes.
As long as it doesn't sound like you are using a word simply because it 'fits' with a bit of force,
and it works well in the overall context of the song.... You'll get away with it.
And your songs will sound a little more mature as well.

As for the actual rhymes in this song not being on the same line....
Trust me.... It works like it is.

In one of Straycats older songs, I was reading along and all of a sudden noticed that a word I had just read was a rhyme
with something previous in the song,
though it was not OBVIOUS.
It almost gave me a sense of deja vu.
I had to go back and read it from the begining again.... and, missed what it was AGAIN.
It was VERY comfortable the way it was done.... That is It made me FEEL comfortable (as rhymes do), though not like I was reading a nursery rhyme.
She didn't follow that 'formula' of 1/1, 2/2 or 2/4 or whatever.
The words were in the first and third verses I think, and probably not on the same line or in the same place.

If the words themselves have a rhythm, then don't fight it.
Marvelous things are possible with words.

BREAK THE MOLD!!!!
AND FREE YOUR MIND!!!! :D

Ken