More of a comment than a question...
Some background... My guitar instructor is much more of a "player" than a "gear guy"... he has 8 acoustics that are all top-notch, and then he has a few random import electrics that he doesn't touch much. We talk about gear, but he's not much into electrics and updating hardware and all that. He does, however, love that fact that I'm a gear guy... and he loves the fact that I repair and refinsih guitars (he wants to buy the recent Squier -> Fender conversion Strat I just finsihed).
Anyway... he has this Ibanez Artcore that he got for Christmas from his wife. Entry-level semi-hollow with a set neck and full binding and double-cutaways. Beautiful red guitar. He liked it because he could play it acoustically. Unfortunately, he hates the guitar because he just can't get it setup correctly. It flat out won't intonate. It tunes up fine, but once you start hitting Barre Chords and notes below the 10th fret it start sounding sharp.
So, he gives it to me to see what I can do with it... while I've been taking guitars apart and putting them back together for a few years, I've never attempted my own "set-up" or tried to intonate a guitar. I searched the web trying to find useful guides on intonation and general setup methods. I found a number of great sites. One is "www.fretnotguitarrepair" which looks to be some guy's repari business, but he has a ton of "how-to" pages on general repair. Easy to read, too.
Long story long, I took the guitar and it won't intonate. I tried everything short of swapping the nut or tweaking the truss rod. I flipped the bridge, raised and lowered the action, moved all the saddles, lubricated the saddles. It just won't intonate. It gets CLOSE, but there are always 2 or 3 strings that end up being slightly sharp. I'm sure that the guitar could be fixed by a solid luthier for $65-100, but I don't think my instructor wants to spend that money on a $199 guitar. So, it will probably just be sold.
The point?
What a great experience working on the guitar. I think anyone interested in maintaining their instrument really should at least attempt to perform their own "set up" (short of nut work) and then intonate the guitar. You really get to know the guitar and it really makes a difference when the guitar is properly intonated. I was like many of you who just tuned the guitar and played. The intonation was #1, an unknown, mysterious "thing" and #2, a "given" if the guitar tuned correctly. The fact is, you can play the first 6 - 8 frets on a guitar than is just "in tune" but not intonated. You wouldn't even notice it. But once you start getting away from the first few frets you will find that the guitar will be flat or sharp unless the intonation is set correctly.
I read something on the web in which the author said that beginning and intermediate guitar players don't pay any attention to intonation because they either never play up the fretboard or their ear just cannot discern the flat/sharp sounds from a guitar that isn't intonated. Once you become a better player intonation is as important as open tuning.
Anyway... just a discovery from someone who didn't really understand intonation and what it meant.
-=- Steve
"If the moon were made of ribs, would you eat it?"
So true; intonation doesn't normally bother newer players because they spend most of their time on the lower frets. Same thing with the way older, stretched out strings can affect intonation. I remember trying to adjust the saddles on some guitar - for hours - and then read somewhere that adjusting intonation should only be done after a fresh set of strings was put on - something about the strings, having been stretched and used for awhile, develop secondary stretched out areas between and over frets or between the nut and certain frets due to doing a lot of bends, etc. I put a new set of strings on and voi la! Everything intonated.
And the first time I tried to adjust a guitar with a moveable bridge!
But after a certain point, a player *does* start to notice. I think it's also connected to the fact that a person's ear gets better and better as they go along.
Good post!
Have you tried a different set of strings?
"Everybody got to elevate from the norm."
the action's too high on my acoustic. i don't know why. it was fine before. it either warped in the heat, or the heavier strings have pulled it that way, but i'm gonna have to file down the bridge nut.
the action's too high on my acoustic. i don't know why. it was fine before. it either warped in the heat, or the heavier strings have pulled it that way, but i'm gonna have to file down the bridge nut.
The nut is just before the strings go to the tuning pegs, and the bridge, down the other way. The saddle's the plastic or bone piece that sits in the slot in the bridge. Before you file either, you might try adjusting the trussrod - usually located either under a cover on the face of the headstock, or at the heel or butt of the neck, usually located just inside the soundhole, inside the body. The 'bow' in the neck caused by heavier strings probably won't be adjusted by filing down the saddle or nut.
Best regards.
My Jay Turser has horrible intonation. I'm planning on getting some better tuners first though, because the A, G, & B strings won't stay in tune. It is sharp past the 8th fret or so on just about every string. I don't play it much anymore, but I will eventually learn to set it up right just because I think it would be a great skill to have.
Vacate is the word...Vengance has no place on me or her...Cannot find a comfort in this world.
I think in some ways it was a grace to have a really crappy, old, cousins guitar as my first guitar. In a way, its level of badness meant that I didn't have any fear in messing around with it because I knew I couldn't make it sound worse/harder to play.
This meant that I have fiddled or changed parts of every bit of the guitar. Neck, frets, truss rod, neck screws, nut, bridge, saddle, springs and I've even done some soldering and re-wiring.
This being said, I understand alot more about the guitar as an object and whilst this is nice, my drastic improvements still only add up to an average guitar.
The higher frets are horribly out of tune, despite my best efforts. I think it's time to get a new guitar, because this one can only take me so far.
"Today is what it means to be young..."
(Radiohead, RHCP, Jimi Hendrix - the big 3)
I agree with Dali Lama, everyone needs to be able to set up their own guitar.
"A cheerful heart is good medicine."
I also do all of the set up work on my guitars. A while back, I paid my teacher (who is also a tech) to set up a guitar for me. I watched him do it. Didn't seem that hard - now I save $30-50 every time I do my own set up. If I have a question, I just look it up on the internet (what did we ever do before the internet?!?). In fact, I bought an Ibanez acoustic with a cracked neck for $50. I figured out how to glue it, sand it down, touch up the finish, and just sold it for $260! And I had fun fixing it!
I wouldn't suggest you start with your priceless Martin, but if you have an average production model guitar from Asia, it really isn't that risky to attempt to work on it.
I was born with perfect pitch. It's a blessing and a curse...but when I first started playing guitar, I would always spend my time re-tuning the thing because of intonation problems, which I didn't understand. What I do understand, though (now) is that the guitar is an even-tempered instrument. You'll never get everything exactly in tune (much to my dismay); you can come pretty close (I had to readjust the saddles on my telecaster when I put on new strings; the first time I tried to do this, I tried to get all the strings intune with each other on every fret. Caused a lot of frustration.) but you'll never exactly get it because the fret scale is the same for every string.
Kudos to The Dali Lama, though, for attempting that feat. I've only messed with saddles, nothing else. Much respect.
There's asite out there, something like FanFrets or something, that attempts to remedy the string-scale thing, but it seems as though it wouldn't be too easy to play. I can't find the site I found before, probably best to google it. Some of the acoustics look simpler to play, but the electrics look quite difficult (because, at the frest get higher, they get much more slanted. Would probably throw off scales and such.) I thought that was pretty interesting, though.
I guess I'm done.
Edit: http://www.novaxguitars.com .
-lunchmeat
Interesting site. What I loved was the fact that the basic 6-string with no bells and whistles was $2800 with a GIGBAG! An extra $75 for a hardcase.
And that didn't include shipping!!!!
Are you kidding? Why not just sell the thing for $2925 and get rid of the nickel/dime pricing?
-=- Steve
"If the moon were made of ribs, would you eat it?"
sorry. saddle. anyway, the action is too high even up at the 22nd fret and i've already adjusted the truss rod so that it's almost buzzing down at the 1st fret. i'd love to get one of those fan fret guitars. maybe some day i'll be able to afford it.
Lunchmeat, you've also identified why tuning the strings to each other by harmonics is erroneous. (Other than octave intervals.) The guitar is an equal tempered instrument, and the intervals between the strings need to be equal tempered, just as the fretted notes are. Harmonics give you Pythagorean intervals. The mixture doesn't work right, and will exacerbate your intonation woes.
"A cheerful heart is good medicine."
