Melodic Minor....

Good day all.... can anyone sum up for me what a Melodic Minor scale is please.

I herd on the grapevine that it can be thought of like a dorian mode but with just a b3 instead of a b3 and b7..... is this true?

Also I herd that the order of notes you play on the way down the scale change on the way back up???

Hi Barney,
The melodic minor scale is a modification of the harmonic minor scale, which is a modification of the natural minor scale/ aeolian mode. (Although you could think of it as the dorian mode without a flatted seventh, if that helps)

The scales of A minor (for example) are

A B C D E F G A - Natural minor/ Aeolian mode
A B C D E F G# A - Harmonic minor
A B C D E F# G# A - Melodic minor (ascending form)
A G F E D C B A. Melodic minor (descending form)

In classical usage it has a descending form identical to that of the natural minor, but its use in jazz dispenses with this distinction (as far as I know).

As its name suggests, it was introduced to improve the melodic shape of the harmonic minor, which, with its 'augmented second' interval between the 6 & 7th degrees, was considered awkward and unmelodic - (probably a bit 'foreign' sounding too which didn't help).

It's popular among Jazz musicians who also exploit its various modes, and I'm hoping someone more clued up on Jazz theory will expand on that.

To take up where Fretsource left off...

'Modes' of minor scales don't have formal names; they're usually identified by the nearest mode with an alteration. Since the descending version is identical to the Aeolian mode, jazzers largely concern themselves with the ascending version.

It's really astoundingly close to the major scale:

C major: C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C
C melodic minor: C-D-Eb-F-G-A-B-C

So the modes will be

Ionian b3
Dorian b2
Ionian #5 (there is no 'Phrygian' variant, because the 3rd - the Phrygian root - is altered)
Lydian b7
Mixolydian b6
Aeolian b5
Locrian b4

Cool... that makes a bit of sense

So with the modes you listed do you just apply those relevant flats and sharps to the C Major scale e.g.

Mixolydian b6 would be: C D E F G Ab B C and this would be C Melodic Minor Mixolydian??

Also how does the Locrian mode with the b4 work? Because wouldnt the b4 (F flattened to E) be the same as the 3rd note (which is already E) of the scale?

And is right to say that these melodic minor scales work best with minor chords of a particular key... in this case C?

Sorry to fire more quesions your way

Thanks for the help

Barney

No - the mixolydian b6 means that, (in relation to C) it starts on G but has a flat 6:
G A B C D Eb F G

Similarly, the locrian b4 starts on B
B C D Eb F G A B

Quote "And is right to say that these melodic minor scales work best with minor chords of a particular key... in this case C?"

No, the melodic minor and its modes, don't restrict you to playing over mostly minor chords.

Just a quick fyi:

I got the most recent issue of Guitar Player yesterday. It's got an article on the melodic minor. You might want to have a look at it.

It's the September issue, btw. I don't know if it's hit the newsstands yet.

Mixolydian b6 would be: C D E F G Ab B C and this would be C ... Mixolydian??

And C Mixolydian is in the key of F, so you'd need the Bb in there

A :-)

As I said, modes of altered minor scales don't have formal names. Lots of people try to name them; the names they come up with are different from one book to another; musicians have not adopted any one method as standard.

Sport, you're right - I left out the #4.

Ok.... im not sure if im grasping this right.

Im struggling with the terminology for each area... im not quite sure what is what.

Here Fretsource detailed this version of the melodic minor scale:

Quote:
A B C D E F# G# A - Melodic minor (ascending form)
A G F E D C B A. Melodic minor (descending form)

So would that be A Melodic Minor? If so where does the Ionian b3 come in which noteboat mentioned earlier? Am I confusing the order of modes with something else?

I get where they start now... so the Dorian mode Noteboat mentioned earlier I assume would start on D and follow:

D, Eb, F, G, A, B, C.....??

So what would this be classified as then.... C Dorian Melodic Minor? Much like where Fretsource listed these modes:

Quote: No - the mixolydian b6 means that, (in relation to C) it starts on G but has a flat 6:
G A B C D Eb F G

Similarly, the locrian b4 starts on B
B C D Eb F G A B

Would these be classed as C Mixolydian Melodic Minor and C Locrian Melodic Minor??

I really dont no what im talking about do I.... hopefully ill get there!

Thanks for your time

Barney

Hang in there Barney! You're almost there.

Two points mentioned by NoteBoat need to be kept in mind:
1. The melodic minor scale is identical to the major scale except for one note, the 3rd
C D E F G A B C - Major
C D Eb F G A B C - Melodic minor (ignore the descending form)

2. There are no formal names for these modes.

As the melodic minor is almost identical to the major, the simplest way to name them is to call them by their traditional names as they relate to the major scale, but include that one altered note in the name. (There's no need to say "melodic minor" in the mode's name too.)

So, for example Mode 2 of the C major scale produces the notes:
D E F G A B C D which we call D dorian

And mode 2 of the almost identical melodic minor scale will produce the notes:
D Eb F G A B C D which we can call D Dorian b2. That name, though unofficial, gives us all the information that we need about the notes of that mode.

Hi, its definately getting better.... I just get lost a lot of the time with terminology and just wanted to make sure I can correctly identify and label things.

So...if I put it into practice in another key ..... is this right?

E F# G# A B C# D# - E Major
E F# G A B C# D# - E Melodic Minor

and using the Melodic Minor's order of modes would this be the Lydian scale?

A B C# D# E F# G - starting from the 4th note of E Major and using a b7 is this A Lydian b7?

I just need to memorise all this and the flats and sharps in the melodic minor's order of modes now..... I feel some revison charts coming on.

Thanks again for your time

Barney

So...if I put it into practice in another key ..... is this right?

E F# G# A B C# D# - E Major
E F# G A B C# D# - E Melodic Minor

and using the Melodic Minor's order of modes would this be the Lydian scale?

A B C# D# E F# G - starting from the 4th note of E Major and using a b7 is this A Lydian b7?
In a word - YES!

Brilliant!

Cheers for that ..... time to noodle me thinks.

Barney