Modal mastery; almost there

Hi, blutic,

I think you're getting confused between the seven Modes of the major scale (which you can play at any position on the neck) and the five positions you'd generally use to play a Pentatonic.

Take a step back and check out Greybeard's pages again.

Best,

A :-)

Forgive me, but are these not the same 5 patterns that make up the major scale? The root note is in a different place, but the pattern is the same, or am I wrong?
If I know the 5 basic patterns and I know the root notes of each of the modes, a little brain power will give me layout of the patterns for each mode.
What is the sense in memorising 35 patterns, when learning 5 will do?

What is the sense in memorising 35 patterns, when learning 5 will do?

You're right - I was just making it more complicated than it should be.

A :-)

You are correct that the 5 patterns are the same, only the order is different for the different modes.  I have seen different patterns that you can use to play in a given mode.  I guess my questions are: 1) Does this web site accurately depict the patterns to play in a given mode all over the neck?  2) Is there a better or easier way to play in a given mode all over the neck?  What I really want is to be able to solo in any mode in any key anywhere on the neck.  If you open most scale books and look for D Dorian for example, it gives you one pattern in one position.  

think of it logically a scale is made up of a sequence of intervals. If you make a circle of those intervals, no matter where you start or finish on the circle the intervals don't change, merely the starting and ending point. So the patterns, as I see it stay the same, only the root note changes.

So the rule still applies the scale is wherever I hang my hat put my root and the patterns still interlock wherever they are on the neck.

Here is the site again: http://guitarsrule.com/theory/scales/

The reason I made this post is because I learned the 5 box patterns for the major and minor pentatonic scales and the major and natural minor scales.  That has really helped my improv and soloing.  When I found this web site I thought "Hey great, similar patterns for modes.  Maybe now I can finally understand and use modes."
Big mistake :)

Ok, I'm looking at all the patterns that make up the Ionian mode (the major scale, root is G).  Now, look at the G Dorian pattens. The indicated root is still G (because it is depicting G Dorian).  So, if I am in the key of G major and I want to solo in the Ionian mode then switch to the Dorian mode to follow the chord changes, would I use these G Dorian pattens or transpose them and play in A Dorian?  [Remember, I want to stay in the key of G major]

then yes you would... you reming me of me... 1/2 weeks ago i was like you.. but after endless PM's with other members and conversations with my music teacher i sussed nearly all of it..

modes can be played with a backing chord or not..

if it is with a backing chord.. this sets the tonal centre and you can improvise any pattern of the notes of the mode.

if you are just playing a melody then try to play it starting and ending and having frequent returns to the root (to keep the tonal centre)

it doesnt matter WHERE you play them.. there are endless patterns over the fingerboard..

i think you wanted to know how they could be applyed to improvisation and soloing.

did you?

One more confusing question?  

If I play the 5 different patterns in modes other than Ionian, will it sound too "majorey" because they are major scale patterns?

Where the heck is Noteboat anyway?

hi this is my first post

ok
Ionian, Lydian, Mixolydian; have a major sound
ps: ionoan=major ;)

Aeolian, Dorian, Phrygian; have a minor sound
ps: aeolian=minor

cranky pants locrian is wierd coz its root chord is a diminished chord (neither maj nor min )

and to ease the confusion off, try seeing the modes as a bunch of crazy scales; ya know, with there own intervallic pattern, floavor, mood (mode ???)

and once you have learnt the 5 patterns and you come across it somewhere else it will come automatically to you (bet this has happened to ya all)

bye

didnt share all did i? :P

http://www.cyberfret.com/theory/modes/101/index.php

if that url didnt work
go to cyberfret.com >theory >modes101

they have a bunch of wierd info about modes!!

Time for my prozac ;D ;D ;D

Here is a link to the other way I know how to play through all the modes in a key.  

http://www.cyberfret.com/theory/modes/101/page5.php

The problem with using these patterns, is that you can only play in Dorian in one position (for example).  Some call this the derivitive way to play the modes.  Personally, I don't care for doing it this way because it is all the same major scale pattern just starting in a different place.

lol, you knew i was talking about NoteBoat...

he stopped replying to my PM's a few days ago.. .i was wondering where he was too.

Let me have a crack at this...

There are seven box patterns that cover the major scale and all of it's modes. Once you learn the seven patterns you'll know everything you need to know to be able to solo anywhere on the fretboard in any mode or key.

If you want to use a different scale, say harmonic minor or Hungarian minor or any other scale that uses a different sequence of half-steps and whole-steps, you'll need to learn more patterns.

Here are the seven patterns I'm talking about:

[fixed]
Ionian

e|-----|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|--o--|-----|
b|-----|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|--R--|-----|
G|-----|--o--|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
D|-----|--o--|--R--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
A|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
E|--R--|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|

Dorian

e|-----|-----|--o--|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|
b|-----|-----|--o--|--o--|-----|--R--|-----|
G|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
D|--o--|-----|--R--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
A|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
E|--R--|-----|--o--|--o--|-----|-----|-----|

Phrygian

e|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|
b|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|--R--|-----|
G|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
D|--o--|-----|--R--|--o--|-----|-----|-----|
A|--o--|-----|--o--|--o--|-----|-----|-----|
E|--R--|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|-----|

Lydian

e|-----|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|
b|-----|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|--R--|-----|
G|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|--o--|-----|-----|
D|-----|--o--|--R--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
A|-----|--o--|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
E|--R--|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|

Mixolydian

e|-----|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|--o--|-----|
b|-----|-----|--o--|--o--|-----|--R--|-----|
G|-----|--o--|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
D|--o--|-----|--R--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
A|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
E|--R--|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|

Aeolian

e|-----|-----|--o--|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|
b|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|--R--|-----|
G|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
D|--o--|-----|--R--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
A|--o--|-----|--o--|--o--|-----|-----|-----|
E|--R--|-----|--o--|--o--|-----|-----|-----|

Locrian

e|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|
b|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|--R--|-----|
G|--o--|-----|--o--|--o--|-----|-----|-----|
D|--o--|-----|--R--|--o--|-----|-----|-----|
A|--o--|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|-----|
E|--R--|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|-----|
[/fixed]

The names I've given the patterns are kind of accurate, and kind of misleading.

They're accurate because if you line up the 'R' on the low E string with the mode you want to play in, you will be playing that mode. (Eg If you want to play in the A Phrygian mode, anchor the Phrygian pattern on the 5th fret of the low E string)

They're misleading because they can give the impression that the only way to play a particular mode is to use that mode's pattern. You can actually use any of the seven patterns to play any of the seven modes.

For example: If you want to play in the G Lydian mode, you can use the Lydian pattern at the third fret, or the Mixolydian pattern at the fifth fret, or the Aeolian pattern at the seventh fret, and so on and so forth. You'd have to throw the 'R' notes out the window, of course, as the R notes in the Mixolydian pattern are going to be 'A's, and in the Aeolian pattern they'll be 'B's, and so on. The notes you're using are exactly the same in each pattern though. Just find the note 'G' in each pattern and make a mental note that that's the root note.

The best way to lock the sound of a mode into your brain is to get a note sounding out. Just one note. Maybe a G. That'll be the root note, which is the reference point for every note you play. Then, while the G is singing out, pick which mode you want to try out. Say you pick Dorian. Play the Dorian pattern at the third fret. Then the Phrygian pattern at the fifth fret. Then all of the other patterns at the appropriate places on the fretboard. It'll all be Dorian.

Then try another mode in G. All of the box patterns will be in the same order, but they'll all have shifted up or down the fretboard.

Hopefully that helps.

I have seen those patterns before.  How can you use them to play in any mode over the entire neck?

Here are the seven patterns I'm talking about:

[fixed]
Ionian

e|-----|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|--o--|-----|
b|-----|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|--R--|-----|
G|-----|--o--|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
D|-----|--o--|--R--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
A|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
E|--R--|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|

Dorian

e|-----|-----|--o--|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|
b|-----|-----|--o--|--o--|-----|--R--|-----|
G|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
D|--o--|-----|--R--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
A|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
E|--R--|-----|--o--|--o--|-----|-----|-----|

Phrygian

e|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|
b|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|--R--|-----|
G|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
D|--o--|-----|--R--|--o--|-----|-----|-----|
A|--o--|-----|--o--|--o--|-----|-----|-----|
E|--R--|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|-----|

Lydian

e|-----|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|
b|-----|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|--R--|-----|
G|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|--o--|-----|-----|
D|-----|--o--|--R--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
A|-----|--o--|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
E|--R--|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|

Mixolydian

e|-----|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|--o--|-----|
b|-----|-----|--o--|--o--|-----|--R--|-----|
G|-----|--o--|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
D|--o--|-----|--R--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
A|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
E|--R--|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|

Aeolian

e|-----|-----|--o--|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|
b|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|--R--|-----|
G|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
D|--o--|-----|--R--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|
A|--o--|-----|--o--|--o--|-----|-----|-----|
E|--R--|-----|--o--|--o--|-----|-----|-----|

Locrian

e|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|
b|-----|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|--R--|-----|
G|--o--|-----|--o--|--o--|-----|-----|-----|
D|--o--|-----|--R--|--o--|-----|-----|-----|
A|--o--|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|-----|
E|--R--|--o--|-----|--o--|-----|-----|-----|
[/fixed]

The names I've given the patterns are kind of accurate, and kind of misleading.

They're accurate because if you line up the 'R' on the low E string with the mode you want to play in, you will be playing that mode. (Eg If you want to play in the A Phrygian mode, anchor the Phrygian pattern on the 5th fret of the low E string)

They're misleading because they can give the impression that the only way to play a particular mode is to use that mode's pattern. You can actually use any of the seven patterns to play any of the seven modes.

For example: If you want to play in the G Lydian mode, you can use the Lydian pattern at the third fret, or the Mixolydian pattern at the fifth fret, or the Aeolian pattern at the seventh fret, and so on and so forth. You'd have to throw the 'R' notes out the window, of course, as the R notes in the Mixolydian pattern are going to be 'A's, and in the Aeolian pattern they'll be 'B's, and so on. The notes you're using are exactly the same in each pattern though. Just find the note 'G' in each pattern and make a mental note that that's the root note.

The best way to lock the sound of a mode into your brain is to get a note sounding out. Just one note. Maybe a G. That'll be the root note, which is the reference point for every note you play. Then, while the G is singing out, pick which mode you want to try out. Say you pick Dorian. Play the Dorian pattern at the third fret. Then the Phrygian pattern at the fifth fret. Then all of the other patterns at the appropriate places on the fretboard. It'll all be Dorian.

Then try another mode in G. All of the box patterns will be in the same order, but they'll all have shifted up or down the fretboard.

Hopefully that helps.

All right, Rayman, thank you!  Those are exactly the boxes I've been talking about and learning. For me, it's worked very well for learning the scales and getting at least a sense of the modes.  And these are the boxes I can never find posted on the web and which I'm too lazy to write out myself.  Thanks!