Where to learn Theory for beginners

G lads thanks loads i cant belive this, so grateful for the response must read it all now
thanks Frank

PS. Might have some questions in a bit

Frank, just bear in mind that there are two different ways of thinking about modes. NoteBoat and I are agreed that the only meaningful way to think of them is as unique scale patterns, each based on its own key note, rather than just the major scales starting from different places. This is in accordance with their traditional usage.
I believe that that other way of thinking about them as belonging to the major scale is based on a misconception. The fact that D dorian (DEFGABCD) has exactly the same notes as C major (CDEFGABC) but starting on note 2 is a coincidence, with little more than curiosity value as NoteBoat puts it.

So when other people explain modes to you, some of them (maybe even most of them) will explain them as having come from starting on different notes of the major scale. I hope you'll put them right :lol:
By the way Irish traditional music is very modal, especially the mixolydian mode.

So when other people explain modes to you, some of them (maybe even most of them) will explain them as having come from starting on different notes of the major scale. I hope you'll put them right :lol:
By the way Irish traditional music is very modal, especially the mixolydian mode.
ill quote you and set them straight :lol: ....the irish trad is something i would really like to to get into i think they tune the guitar differently though ,i think its G thats what i have been told, but not sure how to do it, anyway i must learn to play the guitar first :lol:

Do you mind if I go back here a bit to see if I am getting this right
I think I may be going over my head Just a little bit confused about all the terminology used in music

Ok we start of with a note be it A,B,C,D,E,F,G, Then if we take one of the notes for argument sake we will use C ok
Is a note a degree
C,D,E,F,G,A,B are all notes in the key of C this is where we get the chord progression from
A chord is made up of 3 of these notes or degrees same thing ?

So are these notes C,D,E,F,G,A,B. also know as a scale of C
Is there a difference between the note in the key of and the scale of /same note ?
Like is a key and a scale the same/is this right ?
Is note and chord the same ?

So trying to work out chord progression have been told i iv v is popular progression as in C,F,G.
So how does one work this one out C, Am , F, G like where you find the minor chord ?
How do I work out the chord progression ?
Thanks frank

A note is a note is a note :) it's only a 'degree' when it's being compared to a scale. If you're in the key of C, the note C is '1'. If you're in the key of F, the note C is '5' (because it's the fifth note in the F major scale)

Yes, chords are made up of three or more notes. Starting from the root of the chord, you build by using every other scale note - so C major comes from the C major scale by using scale degrees 1, 3, and 5.

Notes and chords aren't the same thing, but major chords are so common we just use the letter name - so they can sometimes look like notes. If I just type 'C', you need context to tell if I'm talking about the note or the C major chord.

Since chords are made by taking every other scale note, if you took the C major scale and started from the note A, every other note gives you A-C-E. That's an A minor chord - so Am is the vi in the key of C. Your progression would be I-vi-IV-V (we use upper case for major, dominant, or augmented chords, and lower case for minor and diminished chords - and Roman numerals stand for chords; Arabic numbers like '3' stand for scale degrees)

Hi lads

I am back again i hope you dont mind me asking you more questions I very confused about keys chord, scales and chord construction

Let's take the C note for this example.

OK I want to play in the key of C so my notes are C D E F G A B C what does this mean, can play any of theses notes as a chord and stay in the key of C?
Now if that is the case do you play the chords so to play C you use I, III, V of the C scale and that give you the voicing of the chord then likewise if you want to stay in the same key of C and play D you figure out the scale of D and use I III V again to determine the configuration of the D chord and continue right through the C scale if you to use the other notes E,F,G,A,B and from there I think you go into mode to get like the minors and 7th ect not sure but this what I think
if this is right can I play, in the key of C, play G and then because I am playing ” G” I can play F# because that is in the key of G? I don't think that's the
way it work but thought ill ask
I just noticed there is very little difference in all the keys except the number of # sharps and the order in which the start (the root) so that brings me to this, do they have to be played in sequence like 1, IV, V Is that like C,F,G if this is right can I change that around

So is this how you know what chords to play to stay in key ?

Also does chord progression mean staying in key and what chords to use ?

I hope I'm right

Now if that is the case do you play the chords so to play C you use I, III, V of the C scale and that give you the voicing of the chord then likewise if you want to stay in the same key of C and play D you figure out the scale of D and use I III V again to determine the configuration of the D chord and continue right through the C scale if you to use the other notes E,F,G,A,B and from there I think you go into mode to get like the minors and 7th ect not sure but this what I think

I'm sorry man, I'd love to help but I have absolutely no idea what you're saying. I've tried reading it a few times but I just don't get it. Could you rephrase it a bit?

I think I understand the question.

No, you can't use any of the notes as a chord. The D major chord won't work, because the chord is D-F#-A, and the F# note is not in the key of C.

But you can use any of the notes as a chord root - for a chord built on D, you'd use D-F-A (all notes in the key of C) and end up with a D minor chord.

Modes has nothing to do with it.

And yes, the I-IV-V progression is the same in any key. In C it's C-F-G; in G it's G-C-D, etc.

Wow what a great thread. I am really starting to understand this, thanks guys for all of you input and Frank for your questions. This should be made essential reading for beginners. And probably a lot of more experienced players too.

Good work fellas keep it up :D

OK I want to play in the key of C so my notes are C D E F G A B C what does this mean, can play any of theses notes as a chord and stay in the key of C?
Yes and no - Those are all the root notes you can play to stay in key, but you need to make them either major, minor or diminished depending on their position in the scale. More on that in a mo...
Now if that is the case do you play the chords so to play C you use I, III, V of the C scale and that give you the voicing of the chord then likewise if you want to stay in the same key of C and play D you figure out the scale of D and use I III V again to determine the configuration of the D chord
Almost - You use the same pattern of notes as you did for the C, but from the same scale, not the D scale. IE, for C you used the notes you called I, III and V, for D you would use the notes you called II, IV and VI.

So for a root of C you use C, E and G and for a root of D you use D, F and A.

Coming back to the major/minor thing, if you count the frets between those notes you can see their is a slight difference in the pattern:

The C chord above: C--C#-D--D#-E--F--F#-G
The D chord above: D--D#-E--F--F#-G--G#-A

For the C chord you have the middle of those notes 4 frets above the C note. For the D chord it is only 3 frets above the D note - this is the difference between major and minor, so you can see that in the key of C, the D chord should be D minor, not D major. You can apply this theory to all of the root notes, and you get this pattern:

I: Major
ii: Minor
iii: Minor
IV: Major
V: Major
vi: Minor
vii: Dimished (slightly different pattern again, you can usually substitute a minor in here though).

Does that make sense?

I'm with Arjen there Frank - That's not so much a question, as a tangled mass of words and terms, with a few question marks thrown in for good measure - :lol:
But no job is too big for the GN theory mob so let's see if we can untangle some of it.

"OK I want to play in the key of C so my notes are C D E F G A B C what does this mean, can play any of theses notes as a chord and stay in the key of C?"

Yes - if you combine those notes into chords you can stay in the key of C major BUT they must be ordered in such a way that C emerges as the tonal centre (the key note). Depending on the chord progressions (order in which the chords appear) other notes of that scale could be heard as the key note. If you want the key centre to be C you need progressions that will establish it, especially - V7 > I in the right places.

"Now if that is the case do you play the chords so to play C you use I, III, V of the C scale and that give you the voicing of the chord "

I, 3 and 5 are the scale notes that produce the first (tonic) chord (Don't use Roman numerals for scale notes). The voicing refers to how those notes are arranged within the chord.

"then likewise if you want to stay in the same key of C and play D you figure out the scale of D and use I III V again to determine the configuration of the D chord and continue right through the C scale if you to use the other notes E,F,G,A,B"

No - if you want to construct a D chord from the second note of a C scale, you can't use 1, 3 & 5 of the D major scale. You must use notes 2, 4 & 6 of the C scale - which is D minor. You can continuue to think of it as 1, 3 & 5 starting on note 2 but only if you stick with the notes of the C scale - not the D scale.
The other chords (always sticking to the C scale) are
E G B (3, 5 7) = E minor
F A C = (4 6 8 ) = F major
G B D (5 7 9) = G major
A C E (6 8 10) = A minor
B D F (7 9 11) = B diminished

"and from there I think you go into mode to get like the minors and 7th ect not sure but this what I think"

No - it has nothing to do with modes

"if this is right can I play, in the key of C, play G and then because I am playing ” G” I can play F# because that is in the key of G?"

No - in that context your G chord belongs to the key of C, not G. If you play F# notes with enough emphasis, your G chord might start to sound like the key chord and take over from C, resulting in a change of key (called modulation). That's fine if you want to change key to G, but if you want to stay in C, you must handle those F#s with care. Worst case scenario - you'll end up with no real key centre and your listeners will feel uncomfortable with no sense of direction.

"I just noticed there is very little difference in all the keys except the number of # sharps and the order in which the start (the root) so that brings me to this, do they have to be played in sequence like 1, IV, V Is that like C,F,G if this is right can I change that around"

You can play them in any order, bearing in mind what I said at the beginning about how certain chord progressions will strengthen the key and others will weaken it.

"So is this how you know what chords to play to stay in key ? "

Yes

Since there are other subjects about the modes in the forum, and since this particular one is becoming quite logical and didactic, let me bring a question I still have about the subject: why do you prefer using pedal tones in the chords associated with modes: for instance I play a D dorian melody , then I have to pick F/D, or G/D chords, so this brings another aspect mentioned in these other subjects: that major and minor scales tend to use the IV-V-I progression but the chords associated to modes don't..could you please develop this part?

The reason is the cadence.

The idea of 'key' is fairly vague. If you have a stand-alone melody, the shape of the melody creates a sense of tonal center, identifying the 'key note'. Since the tonal center is the root of the scale, the other tones used then identify the mode you're in.

But a chord progression complicates things, because a series of chords can also create the feeling of a tonal center - by the tension and release of a chord change, called a cadence.

The strongest tensions are created by the V chord, which is the only chord that harmonizes to a dominant 7th in a major scale. This chord wants to move in V-I, and strongly sets I as the key - this is called the 'authentic' cadence.

But if you use a dominant seventh in a mode, it doesn't fall on the V - it's in the wrong place. If you're in D Dorian, the dominant 7th falls on the IV... and suggests you have C as a tonal center.

Since the key of C major and D Dorian have the same notes, this gives the ear conflicting information: the chords say C is the tonal center, and the notes don't disagree - none of them are out of key. But the melody notes don't resolve properly against the chord progression. You're left with the sense that the melody is wrong.

The IV chord also creates a cadence (called the 'plagal' cadence). The tension isn't as strong as it is with the V, but there's still a natural feeling of motion towards a tonal center.

So when you use modes, you tend to avoid any cadence. Most modal tunes are simple vamps - repeated sequences of 2 or 3 chords - that do not contain a IV-I or V-I change.

I'm with Arjen there Frank - That's not so much a question, as a tangled mass of words and terms, with a few question marks thrown in for good measure -

I'm with you too did'nt make a whole lot of sence when i read it back, but i knew what i ment :lol: sorry

Now if that is the case do you play the chords so to play C you use I, III, V of the C scale and that give you the voicing of the chord then likewise if you want to stay in the same key of C and play D you figure out the scale of D and use I III V again to determine the configuration of the D chord and continue right through the C scale if you to use the other notes E,F,G,A,B and from there I think you go into mode to get like the minors and 7th ect not sure but this what I think

I'm sorry man, I'd love to help but I have absolutely no idea what you're saying. I've tried reading it a few times but I just don't get it. Could you rephrase it a bit?

SORRY TRY THIS
Ill try to make it clearer

Ok lets break it down note in the key of C are C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C so how do I stay in key like can I play F after any of those note in the sale
1st question
Are the note in the scale actually chords like c chord d chord e chord and so on?

Number 2 question to make up a chord is it I III V of scale your in so the C chord is made up of C,E,G on the guitar strings is there different ways to make chord from that scale like could we use I, VI ,III Is that what you call voicing

3 rd question Chord progression how is it done is it like the 1st chord/note of the scale/key your working in then you play the 4th chord of the scale your working in then followed by the 5th chord/note hence 1 4 5 progression ?

How do minor notes get into chord progression is it with modes?

NOTEBOAT SAID
No, you can't use any of the notes as a chord. The D major chord won't work, because the chord is D-F#-A, and the F# note is not in the key of C.

What I mean by this, is in chord progression can I use those notes in the scale. To work out the chords in the progression, for instance IF I am using 1 4 5 progression I can see that I play C followed by E followed by G
NOW after that I make a scale in E and I use the I III V system to determine what notes are in the E chord I see they are E G and B which is I III V of the E scale is this right ?
So if I was using D I would ues the D scale which is D E F# G A B C# D so then I III V of that scale would be D,F# AND A THAT will give me the D CHORD

Maybe if i did it this way

May be it might be easier if one of ye guys go through the system like
Ok so
Take a note. Take C
Notes in the C scale are? C D E F G A B C are these right ?
Notes in the key of C are?

Is the key of C and the scale in C the same thing ?

Chord progression in C what are the chords you can use?
Where do you find them ?

Do you use the C scale notes (C D E F G A B C) to work out the chord progression?

Can you use any pattern for chord progression example (1, 4, and 5)?

Am I on a different planet?