Where to learn Theory for beginners

Frank, I tried to answer that part of your question above... if you want to point out where I lost you, I'll try and explain it better.

Frank, I tried to answer that part of your question above... if you want to point out where I lost you, I'll try and explain it better.

Me too, Frank. I thought I had answered your questions, such as which chords belong to the key of C major. I wrote them out as C maj, D min, Emin F, G Am B dim.

Those chords come about as a result of combining the scale notes
1 3 5 (Don't use Roman numerals for scale notes), 2 4 6, 3 5, 7 etc.

Forget about the voicing. It just means how the notes are arranged, e.g., as 135 or 3515 or 15353 or any other way you can think of to arrange the same three notes over six strings.

Keys and scales are closely related. When we say a song is in the key of C major it means that the main note is C. The main chord is C major and all or most of the other notes in the song belong to the scale of C major.

C maj, D min, Emin F, G Am B dim.

Those chords come about as a result of combining the scale notes
1 3 5 (Don't use Roman numerals for scale notes), 2 4 6, 3 5, 7 etc
So im right in saying you use the notes/degrees in the scale to work out what chords are in that key
Is there a formula for working 2 4 6, 3 5, 7 etc or how do you figure out what notes to use and how,
This is what im asking how you figured out these
Chords C maj, D min, Emin F, G Am B dim. Are all in the key of C ?

Yes and no - Those are all the root notes you can play to stay in key, but you need to make them either major, minor or diminished depending on their position in the scale. More on that in a mo...

OK can you explain this to me how to work this out?

Almost - You use the same pattern of notes as you did for the C, but from the same scale, not the D scale. IE, for C you used the notes you called I, III and V, for D you would use the notes you called II, IV and VI.

How did you come up with this theory II, IV and VI.why these
When you say this is it you used the notes you called I, III and V, was I wrong should I have used 1 3 5 instead

For the C chord you have the middle of those notes 4 frets above the C note. For the D chord it is only 3 frets above the D note - this is the difference between major and minor, so you can see that in the key of C, the D chord should be D minor, not D major. You can apply this theory to all of the root notes, and you get this pattern:

Ok that's ok but where did you get the pattern
What pattern is this D--D#-E--F--F#-G--G#-A?
I must apologise for being such a pest I would just love to understand it, I feel it will help me once I get a grasp on it thanks again

I am trying to write my questions so that they make sense to ye guys. Sorry if it's hard to decipher

Can you use quotes, when you're quoting from previous posts, Frank - Anyone reading will be confused about who said what.

Ok - your question, or at least one of them "Why 2 4 6 scale notes etc and why those chords C maj D min etc."

It's because chords are made from scale notes that are spaced a third apart (3 scale degrees) - In the scale of C that means we take note 1 (C) then we move up 3 scale degrees to E (CDE) for our next note. Then we go up another three degrees (E F G) to G. That's why we have notes 1 3 & 5. It's what you get when you combine notes a third apart
So chord I contains 1, 3 & 5 (C E G) which is C major

Chord 2 - same idea. We start on the next note , note 2 D. Then we go up a third to F (DEF) which is note 4 of the scale then another third (F G A) to A which is note 6 - That gives us notes D F & A (2 4 & 6) for our chord II (now we use Roman numerals) That chord is D minor.

All other chords do the same. Start on a scale note and go up 3 degrees for the next note and another three for the third chord note.

Why some are major and some are minor depends on the actual size of the thirds, As the scale notes aren't equally spaced, some thirds are a little bigger than others. The words major and minor are used to show the two different sizes.
C to E is 4 frets. That's a major third so the complete chord is C major
D to F is only three frets - so that's a minor third and the chord will be D minor (I've slightly oversimplified that bit - but it holds in principle.)
Misanthrope explained more about that in his earlier post.

What pattern is this D D# E F F# G G# A

That's just over half an octave of the chromatic scale.

The pattern in terms of tones and semitones or whole/half steps is SSSSSSS - or HHHHHHH
In fret terms it's 1111111

Well put, Fretsource, and +1 to the please use quotes :)

Here are some tables that many have found useful:

Harmonising the major scale

Notes by scale degree Notes by name (in C)
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 C D E F G A B C Chord no. Chord name.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 3 5 C E G I C major
2 4 6 D F A ii D minor
3 5 7 E G B iii E minor
4 6 8 F A C IV F major
5 7 9 G B D V G major
6 8 10 A C E vi A minor
7 9 11 B D F vii° B diminished


Notes in different keys and their relative minors

Key Minor Signature 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
C major A minor C D E F G A B
G major E minor # G A B C D E F#
D major B minor ## D E F# G A B C#
A major F# minor ### A B C# D E F# G#
E major C# minor #### E F# G# A B C# D#
B major G# minor ##### B C# D# E F# G# A#
F# major D# minor ###### F# G# A# B C# D# E#
F major D minor b F G A Bb C D E
Bb major G minor bb Bb C D Eb F G A
Eb major C minor bbb Eb F G Ab Bb C D
Ab major F minor bbbb Ab Bb C Db Eb F G
Db major Bb minor bbbbb Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C
Gb major Eb minor bbbbbb Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F

LADS
I am so sorry I caused so much confusion I have how ever figured out last night on a chat line what I was trying to learn I'm sure you'll all be glad to hear as I said it all made perfect logic to me
This is what I needed to know to under stand a few things like I, IV and V progression
.
Key A - A Bm C#m D E F#m G#dim
Key A# - A# Cm Dm Eb F Gmin Adim
: Key A# - A# Cm Dm Eb F Gmin Adim
: B - B C#m D#m E F# G#m A#Dim
: C - C Dm Em F G Am Bdim
: C# - C# D#min Fmin F# G# A#min Cdim
: D - D Em F#m G A Bm C#dim
D# - Fm Gm Ab Bb Cmin Ddim
E - E F#min G#min A B C#min D#dim
F - F Gm Am Bb C Dm Edim
F# - F# G#m A#m B C# D#min Fdim
: G - G Amin Bmin C D Emin F#dim:
G# - G# A#m Cm Db Eb Fm Gdim

Thats what I was trying to find out chord progression and how to work it out I still not sure how to get these chord in the first place I know its you do with being (ii) for a minor or (I)for a major chords capital roman numerals
Im glad to say I am moving forward with my understanding
Thanks again if you can help me out with how these chords were worked out in the first place it would be grateful

LADS
I am so sorry I caused so much confusion I have how ever figured out last night on a chat line what I was trying to learn I'm sure you'll all be glad to hear as I said it all made perfect logic to me

You sought help elsewhere - Is that allowed? :lol:

Actually, when I saw your list, my reaction was that maybe it shouldn't be allowed. That list has more wrong with it than right with it. It contains keys that are NOT valid keys. A# major? - NO WAY!
Same goes for D# and G#. And worse still - to try and make them work, some chords have been given incorrect names that totally obscure the logic behind the system. Following that list means you could NEVER understand how it works.
Discard that list immediately and start again from basics. Look at Helgi's tables. It's all there - or read again my, Misanthrope's or NoteBoats recent answers to your questions. The info you want is all there.

Focus on just one key C major. All major keys are the same. If you understand one you can understand them ALL.

Take it step by step and tell us exactly which point you don't understand.

To find the chords that belong to the key of C major:

Step 1
Write out the C major scale (use two octaves so you don't run out of notes)
CDEFGABCDEFGABC

Step 2
Build chord I by taking scale notes 1, 3 & 5
Why 1, 3 & 5? - Well chord I has to start on the first note obviously. Why notes 3 & 5? Because chords are built from notes spaced three scale degrees apart (i.e. THIRDS)
That's the notes C E & G
The notes C E & G make the chord called C major
Why C? Because C is the first note
Why major? Because the distance between C and the next chord note E is relatively large (4 frets) and major means larger

Step 3
Build chord ii starting on note 2 of course
The first note of the chord will be D
The next chord note will be three scale degrees up from that, which is F
And the next note of chord ii will be A, which is another three degrees up.
So chord ii contains scale notes D F & A which is scale notes 2, 4 & 6
That chord is called D minor
Why D minor? Well it's D something because it starts on D. And it's minor because the distance between its first two notes (D-F) is only 3 frets. That's smaller than the distance between the first two notes of chord I (C-E). That's why it's called 'minor' (= smaller) compared to chord I which is major

Now - Look at those steps - and tell us if there is any part that you don't understand.

If you do understand it then PROVE IT - by completing the list of chords built on each degree of the C major scale.
I've done the first two - you do the rest.

Ha! - That'll teach you to go elsewhere :lol:

I'll walk you through the way I see it, right from the ground up. Let's start with all 12 notes:

All notes: C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B


Then we'll pick a random scale instead of C major so you can see how it 'wraps around', say E major. The notes in E Major are E, F#, G#, A, B, C# and D#. Let's put that into our table:

All notes: C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B
E major: C# D# E F# G# A B


Then we'll label each note as a degree of the scale:

All notes: C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B
E major: C# D# E F# G# A B
Scale Degree: 6 7 1 2 3 4 5


Now, for each of these basic chords, we'll build it by taking the root note of that chord and using the following pattern: Root note, skip one, use one, skip one, use one - as you see in the left-most part of HBriem's (excellent) 'Harmonising the major scale' table above.

So for B, for example, that'll be:
Root - B,
skip C#,
Use the next - D#,
skip E,
use the next - F#.

That give us B, D# and F#. To tell if it's major, minor or dimished, we look at the gaps between the notes on the first line, all the notes.

A major chord has a gap of 3 notes followed by a gap of 2 notes.
A minor chord is the other way around, a gap of 2 notes followed by a gap of 3 notes.
A diminished chord has a gap of 2 notes followed by another gap of 2 notes.

Back to our B, D# and F# - By comparing our chord notes to all the notes, you can see that there are 3 notes between B and D#. (Those are C, C# and D.) Between our chord notes of D# and F# there are 2 notes ( E and F. So we have a gap of 3 notes, followed by a gap of 2 notes, which means it's a major chord.

So there we have it, a B chord in the key of E should be B major.

Does that make sense?

*Doh! Guess who's the quicker typer? :mrgreen:*

I have to say i love it at last we are on the same train .. dont know where were going though..yes at last we speak the same language

THANKS FOR YOUR PATIENCE

HERE WE GO :lol:
fretsource said ....The next chord note will be three scale degrees up from that, which is F
And the next note of chord ii will be A, which is another three degrees up.
So chord ii contains scale notes D F & A which is scale notes 2, 4 & 6

I noticed if i take D the ii chord note and make its own scale and we use the normal 1 3 & 5 scale notes we come up with the same D F & A can you work it out this way to just an observation

I noticed if i take D the ii chord note and make its own scale and we use the normal 1 3 & 5 scale notes we come up with the same D F & A can you work it out this way to just an observation

When you say "take the note D and make its own scale", what do you mean? Do you mean the D major scale that comes from TTSTTTS (or WWHWWWH)?
Then NO - you don't get the same notes 1 3 & 5 (D F & A)
The D major scale is D E F# G A B C# D

You get the same 1 and 5 but 3 is different. It's F# not F natural. That's what happens if you don't stick to notes from the C scale.

FRETSOURCE SAID If you do understand it then PROVE IT - by completing the list of chords built on each degree of the C major scale.
I've done the first two - you do the rest.
OK ILL TRY AND I WONT LEAVE YOUR CLASS AGAIN
OK
CEG =C
DFA=Dm
EGB= Em
FAC= F
GBD=G
ACE=Am
BDF= Bdim now i know this is right but not sure how ok because there is 2 gaps of 2 notes got this from Misanthrope

how many chords are in the key? and am i right these are all in the key of C ?

WOW weight lifted getting places i was up until 5 am chating unline about this last night

so please say im right this time . why was it so hard to explane what i was asking i guess i didnt know enough

so question. We know the iichord is D so why did we have to go through that trouble of figuring out DFA was it to find out if it a Maj or min or dim but the Roman numerals would tell you if its a Dm or D by seeing if its a capital or not ?

Because Dm is not D.

A letter used by itself indicates a major chord, and Dm is a minor chord.

CEG =C
DFA=Dm
EGB= Em
FAC= F
GBD=G
ACE=Am
BDF= Bdim now i know this is right but not sure how ok because there is 2 gaps of 2 notes got this from Misanthrope

Perfect!!

Why Bdim? As Misanthrope explained, it's because of the gaps between the notes of the chord. Not only is the first gap from 1 to 3 smaller, but the gap from 3 to 5 is also smaller (3 frets). That means this chord is even smaller than the minor chords which have just one small gap - So it gets called 'DIMINISHED'.
how many chords are in the key? and am i right these are all in the key of C ?

There are 7 triads (3 note chords built from thirds) and you've found them all. But each chord can be extended by adding more notes 3 degrees higher. That will give you 7 seventh chords. You just keep adding notes (3 degrees or a third higher) until you've used every possible note - but don't go there yet.
so question we knew the ii chord is D so why did we have to go through that trouble of figuring out DFA was it to find out if it a Maj or min or dim?

You wanted to know why chord ii is minor, rather than major - so we told you it's because of the gaps between the notes D, F & A. Once you know that, then you don't need to work it out again because EVERY major key will have exactly the same chord TYPES as C major:
Maj, min, min,Maj, Maj, min, dim.
If you memorise that short list then you can apply it to any major scale and instantly know the chords of that key.
A major? - no prob. The scale is A B C# D E F# G#
So the chords, (even without bothering to work them out note by note) MUST BE
A maj
B min
C# min
D maj
E maj
F#min
G# dim