Where to learn Theory for beginners

Thanks again

Cool I'm delighted :D it makes sense at last where should I go to next :?:

Mmm HOME? :lol:

I'll say it again but what a great post. This has really lessoned my fear of theory. It's actually not that complicated at all is it (well the basics anyway)

On the back of this thread I've just ordered Noteboats book and am really looking forward to learning more of this.

Good work fellas keep it up.

Thanks again

Cool I'm delighted :D it makes sense at last where should I go to next :?:

Mmm HOME? :lol:
No problem, it's nice to be able to help someone 'through the door' :)

Where to go next? I've been holding this back because I didn't want to overload you*, but take a look at this. It's my tool for working out which chord belongs to which key, including all the extensions.

The top line (under the notes) is the part we've just worked through, major, minor and diminished - the other lines are pretty much all the extensions of those chords, 7ths, 9ths, sus4s etc. They're all worked out in the same way, just with different patterns than the '1 3 5' we used for major, minor and dimished. For example, a 7th chord is '1 3 5 7' and a 9th is '1 3 5 7 9'.

*plus there's the old "give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach him how to fish and he eats for life" thing :wink:

I had been looking at that tool a few days ago after finding it in another post and thought it was very cool. It kinda made sense but after this thread it makes absolute perfect sense now.

Hey Misanthrope that's cool you should have sent me fishing ages ago :lol:
Is it now that we go into modes, to get the 7ths and 9th chords by adding the extra notes in the dorian and move the scale to have D as the root?

You know what they say a little knowledge is very dangerous !

JAY1
I'm delighted some one else is benefiting from this thread other than me. The lads put quite a bit of time, effort & loads of patience so it's good to see your ears were there to kind of kill 2 birds with one stone fell free jump in

Jay: You can tell I'm a programmer and not a writer, can't you? :wink:

Frank: Others may disagree, but from my perspective: forget modes even exist for a while. If somebody mentions them, stick your fingers in years ears and sing. Get to know keys, chords and scales inside out first, so that it's as effortless as reading... then remember modes and go looking for them. I'm not even to close to being ready to tackle them properly, but I've spent a great deal of time banging my head against a brick wall to find that out for myself - time I could have put to better use :wink:

If you do a search on here for information about modes, you'll see just how complex it gets, how quickly it gets that complex, and how heated it gets around them. There's plenty to be doing in music without modes, but somehow they've gained this magical reputation as the end of the rainbow. I can't definitively say they're not from my own knowledge, but hey, I've plenty to be going on with. :)

Frank: Others may disagree, but from my perspective: forget modes even exist for a while.

+1 from me. Modes have got nothing to do with what we're talking about here.

Frank: Others may disagree, but from my perspective: forget modes even exist for a while. If somebody mentions them, stick your fingers in years ears and sing. Get to know keys, chords and scales inside out first, so that it's as effortless as reading...

I am totally with you here. Very very very few musicians actually need a knowledge of modes to be able to handle anything they play day-to-day. Modes are merely one of many paths through the theory jungle, and I'd argue that they are not a particularly good path -- given the amazing amount of misinformation and mis-statements you can find about them.
then remember modes and go looking for them. I'm not even to close to being ready to tackle them properly, but I've spent a great deal of time banging my head against a brick wall to find that out for myself - time I could have put to better use :wink:

I'd go further. Forget they exist, and don't ever bother with them again unless you find yourself irresistably drawn to modern fusion jazz.
If you do a search on here for information about modes, you'll see just how complex it gets, how quickly it gets that complex, and how heated it gets around them. There's plenty to be doing in music without modes, but somehow they've gained this magical reputation as the end of the rainbow. I can't definitively say they're not from my own knowledge, but hey, I've plenty to be going on with. :)

They actually only have that reputation amongst guitar players who, in general, don't know their major and minor scales very well and instead approach solo'ing from the perspective of playing within shapes. If you hang around piano players and horn players and the like you'll never hear them mentioned.

If you're a shape player, then 'modes' are sort of like the holy grail -- a shape for every occassion.

But if you know your scales and think in terms of notes on the fretboard and not in terms of shapes, modes are unnecessary baggage!

Want to solo over a G7 and avoid any dissonance? Just use the notes of the G-major scale and flatten the 7th. If you know your G Major scale and the fretboard you can do this easily and simply up and down the fretboard. But if you think in terms of scale shapes you're immediately stuck because you're not sure which note is the 7th in the shape you're currently playing!! So you'll turn to 'modes' to give you more shapes.

But then you've made the critical mistake of associating modes with harmonic functions instead of melodic functions . . . and you end up really missing the point of them entirely and from there it's really really easy to get very confused.

So . .. avoid the confussion altogether.

Learn your Major, Minor, Harmonic Minor, Melodic Minor, and diminished scales by wrote (not by shape!) and learn the notes on the fretboard. And you're off to the races.

Just my $.02.

I'd go further. Forget they exist, and don't ever bother with them again unless you find yourself irresistably drawn to modern fusion jazz.

Or medieval/ Renaissance music

So lads is that the end of my lesson? :( I was enjoing that when i started to understand

I have a question though, not getting away that easy

when using a capo can you explan how it works now that i know my keys (yes)

If i am playing in the key of C i put it on 1st fret, shall i try a guess?
ANS. Would it be changed to the key of C# but i can still can use the C key chords ?

talking of which is there a C# Scale ? or do you have to call it Db if so why?

So lads is that the end of my lesson? :( I was enjoing that when i started to understand

I have a question though, not getting away that easy

when using a capo can you explan how it works now that i know my keys (yes)

If i am playing in the key of C i put it on 1st fret, shall i try a guess?
ANS. Would it be changed to the key of C# but i can still can use the C key chords ?

talking of which is there a C# Scale ? or do you have to call it Db if so why?

Yes - Putting the capo on the first fret and playing the same shapes will convert your song from C major to C# major or Db major, if you prefer.

There is indeed a C# scale. It's very easy to work out. You just add a sharp to every note of the C scale.
C# D# E# F# G# A# B#

You don't have to call it Db, but it might be preferable as Db contains only 5 flats (Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C) compared to the seven sharps of C#.

Neither of those keys are guitar friendly.

As for your going further into theory, of course you can go further. We just suggested you stay away from modes. What you can do is expand your knowledge of building three note chords from scales to four note chords - again built on thirds. These will give you the 7th chords that belong to the key.
As you know chord I was 1 3 5 which gave you C major
Extending the chord by adding another third will give you scale notes 1, 3, 5 & 7 or C E G & B
That chord is called C major 7
Here's your homework - (You don't get off that easy either :lol: )
As we're talking about 7th chords, What are the 4 notes of the 7th chord built on note 2 of the scale. (i.e. the ii7 chord). And can you guess what the chord will be called?

FRETSOURCE ASKED see getting good
What are the 4 notes of the 7th chord built on note 2 of the scale. (i.e. the ii7 chord). And can you guess what the chord will be called?

is DFAC and name is Dm7 yes? hope its right

what else ye think i should look at ?what do i need

Correct - Dm7 - DFAC
what else ye think i should look at ?what do i need

You need the other 5 seventh chords - then you need to learn how all these chords can work together in real music.

You need the other 5 seventh chords - then you need to learn how all these chords can work together in real music.
That would help real music thata what its all about :D

need other 5 seventh chords do you mean in the other keys or which ones ?

Do you know of any place that give a list of every chord in every key that i could get ?

Do you know of any place that give a list of every chord in every key that i could get ?

Nope.

And you probably really wouldn't want one anyway.

What you need to understand is how chords are built up in 3rds.

Once you understand what it means for a chord to be a 13th chord, then start looking at common modifications, like 7b5s.

Once you have a handle on that, then figure out a bit about quartile harmonies.

A big list showing you:

Maj, Maj7, 7, Min/Maj7, Min, Min7, 6, 6/9, 9, b9, 11, b9/11, .... is just confusing if you don't know what all that stuff means to start with.