The Proverbial Chicken or Egg Question

Allow me to be the first (shoving his way to the front of the line).
I've written no songs so I have no qualifications to answer this question . .
but that's not going to stop me from answering.

If or when I write a song, it will probably be from listening to a tune (hopefully of my own making) and then putting words to fit the song. Not writing the words and then putting a tune to it.

Now having said that, I feel so much better.
Thank you.

Next!

Needless to say, nothing happens the same way one hundred percent of the time, but close to 95% of the time, I'm a "music first" writer.

"Music first" can also happen in many ways. Usually, though, it starts with a chord progression and a rhythm. From there I will try out nonsense syllables or phrases in order to work out a melody. Once a melody is in play, then I have an idea of how the lyrics will fit and a line-by-line meter to guide me with the lyric writing.

Sometimes I will already have a melody and then work out the chord progression from there. Sometimes I start with a chord progression for a section of the song, work out the melody and then let the melody help me determine where to go next in the chord progression (this is especially helpful when working out a bridge section).

Occasionally, the "music-first" begins with less than a melody or chord progression - a guitar riff or a bass line I've worked out, a rhythm that I think will really drive a song, a phrase on the piano or synth or other instrument. Orange and Cinnamon, a song you can hear on my soundclick page, began as a bass line I wrote as an exercise for the Complete Idiot's Bass Book, for example.

While I've written a number of "lyric-first" songs, I find that I usually fall into iambic pentameter when writing lyrics with no specific music in mind. But there are also, literally, piles of music, songs and bits of songs, on my desk waiting the "right" lyrics to go with them. I often get way too picky with lyrics writing this way and I'm still trying to work through that! :wink:

As Matt says, there's no right or wrong with either method. One thing that I do worry about, though, is when a song just writes itself. Anything that happens within a day's time is suspect, simply because for me to finish something that quickly usually means that I've probably subconsciously borrowed it from somewhere.

I know that this process usually takes more time than I'd like, and I also know how to fix that - spend more time writing on a regular basis. Unfortunately, that's easier said than done. But maybe someday!

And then there's the whole arrangement thing...

Peace

LOL...Then let me get you started Ken!

Step 1: Pick 3 chords.
Step 2: Play them in different ways untils a pattern you like reaches out and says..."Here I am!"
Step 3: Write some lyrics
Step 4: Become famous and credit Blueline for your inspiration! :lol:

Please have this assignment done over the weekend.

David, you posted as I was writing the above...You said.... "From there I will try out nonsense syllables or phrases in order to work out a melody. Once a melody is in play, then I have an idea of how the lyrics will fit and a line-by-line meter to guide me with the lyric writing."

You know..I do the same thing! It drives my kids crazy! But I love this method because it gives you, like you said, a meter to work with. Sometimes that will evolve and the lyrics will change the meter but that's OK! Thanks for sharing the mechanisms you use.

I'm a freshman when it comes to songwriting, but I think I can see a pattern.

1. A theme. An idea about something to write about
2. A line - a combination of words I like, or a "catch phrase", something to start out with
3. The rhythm, or the meter.

This gives me maybe one verse,maybe two or three, with lots of blank lines.

4. The melody. Sometimes I just hum different tunes, for the first part of a line - guess this is the opposite of David's "random syllabus method" (tm).
5 .Chords. I try to search my brain for the zillion small guitar parts I've been noodling around with in front of the TV. Or just strike a chord and see where it leads me kind of.

Having a melody and chords. I go back and starts finishing / rewriting lyrics.

Stylised off course - but I think this is me.
I don't think I'm able to write lyrics alone, and I seldom come up with a melody without having an idea of what song it is supposed to be. :?

interesting thread!

My method is that I have no method. I tend to be a lyrics first type, at least as a starting point. Mainly because I carry a notebook with me and write bits and pieces as they pop in my head. I let the feel of the lyrics find the progression/melody of the music. But I don't always sit down and think "OK, time to write the music to this set of lyrics." I might have a riff or progression that has been floating around for a while and I'll match it to some lyrics. That's what happened with one I'm currently working on with my son.

In other words, all 3 types you mentioned. :D As for inspiration, it comes from everywhere. For the song I mentioned above that my son and I are working on, all I started with was the title which I took from a Law and Order episode title. The lyrics just wrote themselves.

My two cents, but remember I'm Dutch. :P

I definitely don't worry about lyrics when I write a song, vocals are optionally not mandatory to me. I either start with 'music' as you'd notate it (so trying to find a nice progression, melody) or 'sound'. When I go with music I often try to find two notes that are close togther, for example G and Ab in the key of Cm. I then write them down in a nice pattern, G-Ab-G-Ab for example, of G-G-Ab-Ab. Then I add chords to these notes, keeping them at the top. The chords should contain as little motion as possible while keeping things going. For example, with the pattern G-Ab-G-Ab:

C-Eb-G (Cm)
C-Eb-Ab (Ab)
Bb-Eb-G (Eb)
C-F-Ab (Fm)

You then add the root-note below these chords, so you get Cm-Ab-Eb-Fm. I then chose what to do with the chords, pick some arpeggios, play block chords on the piano or give the four notes to a string quartet, for example. From there on I have no system and just go with whatever floats my boat. More often then not at one point or another I'll aproach the foundation I have with the 'music' method below.

If I go with 'sound' first I usually go browse some sample sites where they have tons of (amateur) recordings of everyday's sound. I play around with some that have an 'emotional' vibe. That could be everything, from a couple having a heated debate, rain pouring on the roof, a squeking door, sounds of a kindergarten, marching soldiers, whatever. I then fire up a synth to come up with a sound (or usually soundscape) that fits the same mood. After that I add the harmonies to them in a sensible way. Crying babies and major chords are a bad choice, and a sample of some people celebrating something is better not paired with augmented chords unless you have a very good reason to do so.

And when that is all done I'll see if vocals are needed, and the function it has. It can be spoken-word poetry, a whispered and spooky recital of a shopping list, reversed mumbling, hum melodies, sing lyrics, anything. After that, and only if I go with vocals that deliver words AND the lyrics must be audible I start to 'write' lyrics. Usually I just run the song on a loop, grab a mic and start singing. After a few minutes I always go in a hazy/mindless mode and I automatically start singing what I wanted to sing but couldn't think of it when I sat down with a notepad. After that happens I keep that bit, listen to it a few times and start improving on the lyrics and melodies I improvised. I then take those rough ideas and try to sing them, usually partly improvising to make it work. After a few more improving/improvising sessions it's usually pretty much done.

And finally: mixing. For a pop-song this isn't part of the songwriting process, but for more alternative music it makes sense to make the mixing process part of the songwriting/composition phase. Tracks that have 'motion' to them can have a dramatic impact on a song. Imagine the following chord progression: Cm-Ab-Eb-Fm7. You can have a single sustained Eb note on a synth, layer it with reverb and have it slowly fade in from inaudible at the start to dominant at the ending of the song. As the fading-in is slow, and the sound starts inaudible people will hear the sound before they know they do, and when they realise it is there it's almost as if it always was there. That way you can thicken songs up and create complex soundscapes in a totally fluid, organic and smooth way.

Or as Cat would say: work the faders. Change is the heart of music and repetition the backbone. Most guitarist approach effects in mixing the same way as effects on a guitar: you turn them either on or off. But you can also have a reverb that slowly gets a longer tail and gets constantly thicker. Or a drumloop that slowly but constantly plays more and more out of rhythm to have a song 'fall apart'. Copy your vocals to a new track, shift it up an octave and add a bucket of reverb. Now have the main vocals start loud and slowly fade the shifted vocals in. Four boring tracks can become an awesome song if you can make them come alive during this process.

Awaiting your enlightenment!

Hi Matt,

Yeah... I awaiting my enlightenment too... :wink: Great thread.

I've done a fair bit of writing of one sort or another over the years, so knocking words into shape seems to come more naturally to me than music. I can crank out lyrics more easily than tunes. But often, even if they hang together OK on the page, they still seem like "false lyrics" to me. If there's no music in my head to match, then the job is way less than half done. The songs that I've done that I felt happy with were done with some musical content in mind too, even if I never got as far as recording, or even playing them other than in my head. So I'm currently a 'words first' guy who would like to develop the skills to write more in the ways that David spoke about in the post above.

One thing that I do find that I need to establish pretty early on is the underlying pulse of the song. Once I've got something useful happening there I can make more progress fiddling around with hanging other parts on that backbone. So I've had a couple of drumming lessons to get more of a feel for how that all works. To some extent the percussion/rhythm parts seem like the chassis to build the song on. But I still want to get some sort of melodic or lyric idea first, so there's a great deal of general faffing about trying different things until something fires up. When and if it does, then I like to try and get the basic beat and pulse down in some form, for reference. If I don't then I can wake up the next day and find that I've lost the 'feel' that I had yesterday.

Endlessly interesting process, because you need some sort of discipline and structure in your approach, but if you overdo that angle you lose the chance to stumble on 'mistakes' and 'variations' that can fire up something even more interesting.... Just enjoy what happens, and you can't lose really... :mrgreen:

Cheers,

Chris

... I can crank out lyrics more easily than tunes. But often, even if they hang together OK on the page, they still seem like "false lyrics" to me. If there's no music in my head to match, then the job is way less than half done...

I think that why I stay away from the lyrics first approach. For me,it seems as if those songs that I have written the lyrics first, never seem to get matched up to music. Even if I had a rhythm in mind when I wrote the lyrics.

I find this a facinating topic. Reading JWMartin's approach and comparing it to Arjen's take on things really sheds light on the subject for me. The common thread, and this is a "duh" statement, is that each of you are writing about something that has moved you in some way. Lars mentions a "theme or a catch phrase"...Arjen finds appreciation in a baby's cry. This is great stuff to me. It dovetails into my philosophy that musicians actually DO hear music differently than people. Being inspired by different things and having the need to write about them. To me, that's pretty neat stuff.

99.99% of the time, a song I've written will start out as a couple of words or a phrase I've heard....I'll mess around with it, singing it different ways. Then I'll work out where it's going to be in the song - if it's a good strong catchy phrase, more often than not it'll be the hook, and will be either at the start or the end of the chorus. I'll be playing around with words and phrases in my head for a while - tempo, melody, rhythm, style, I'll vary all of these till I get something I'm vaguely satisfied with.

Again, 99.99% of the time, the words or phrase I start out with will suggest a melody - I'll be writing the rest of the lyrics with that melody in mind, but it won't necessarily stay that way - I may change it.

If I ever try writing music first, I'll be stuck with some nice chords and a melody for ages until something inspires me - I find it far easier to work on lyrics and music at the same time, dovetailing each with the other.

:D :D :D

Vic

Though I have taken lyrics/poems I have written and put music to them this is not my preferred or usual approach.

I usually start by playing through different chord progressions and just humming or signing what ever presents itself. Usually two things happen here, one is a melody starts to emerge and secondly a line or two or perhaps a lyrical theme comes forward.

Once the melody is somewhat in place I start to put the lyrical ideas that I have into some logical format. I continue to hone the melody and add and tweak the lyrics. When I think I am done I play through it several times to make sure that it all fits, sounds coherent and is really complete.

Then comes the real test. I let my wife read the lyrics and then I play her the song. If she likes it I know I've a hit on my hands.

This happens to me all the time. I'll hear music from the TV, radio or store, often coming from another other room or far away enough where I can't make out the lyrics. I'll basically hear the bass line and drume. Then, I'll put lyrics to the music. Melody line and all. Done, Fini. Song over, I've written lyrics for a song in 3:59. THEN< I'll sit down with my guitar sometime later. It's as if I'm a painter staring at an empty canvas. Nothing, Nada, Zip.

Tell me oh wise man....Why?

Well, this is the first post in this forum for me, and since I'm actually close to finishing a song (let's see if it actually does get completed), the way that I did it was the lyrics first. For me, the written part of it sets the tone for the music that will be written, so I thought.

But here's the funny thing, I started out to write a bit of a ballad, slower paced, melodic. When I started to put lyrics and music together, I ended up re-writing alot of it so that it flowed a bit better, and low and behold, it's now a faster paced happy song, with a section of slower music. I'm not sure how it happened, it just kind of did.

Keep in mind that I'm not exactly a creative person, so we'll see where it goes from here. Since I've finally got an electric guitar I may try some multi-tracking and add a bit of lead to it if I can actually learn how to use the darn thing.

...But here's the funny thing, I started out to write a bit of a ballad, slower paced, melodic. When I started to put lyrics and music together, I ended up re-writing alot of it so that it flowed a bit better, and low and behold, it's now a faster paced happy song, with a section of slower music. I'm not sure how it happened, it just kind of did...

That's happened to me a few times. I think that's a natural progression. The song takes on a life of its own. That's a good thing!!!

It's happened to me, as well. On the rare occasions I've written music first I'm invariably stuck for lyrics - I work better putting lyrics to music as I'm going along. So I start trying to fit lyrics to the music I've got - and invariably, those lyrics take me in a different direction to where I wanted to go - and I end up putting new music to them as I'm writing, and I'm still left with the original piece of music!

I've got one particular piece of music that's been hanging around for about four years that I keep coming back to....sort of arpeggiated chords. It came about when I was messing around one night - then Straycat (when she was BlueNightAngel!) was looking for some music for an SSG song (Dodge Paying The Fare - SSG, year 2 (!) week 37) so I adapted it for that, but she'd got some simpler chords by then. Then Portia was looking for some music for a song called Midnight Blue - I tried this piece with her lyrics, and for the most part it fitted OK. Unfortunately she either never got my e-mail, or I didn't get a reply, or didn't see one....

Maybe I'll dig it out, see if anyone can do anything lyric-wise with it.....anyone up for a collaboration?

:D :D :D

Vic