Playing in different (neck) positions

When we talk about playing at certain positions, that's based on the fret you finger with your Index finger.

If you barre the 7th fret and use an E-shape chord, then you're playing at the 7th position. Ditto if you're playing a blues solo with your Index finger fretting the 7th fret. Positions are specified a lot in classical guitar music so that players can fret all the voices properly.

CAGED is great. If you fret D using the C-shape then you're playing at the 2nd position, move up to use the A-shape to play D and you're at the 5th, and so on, and CAGED takes you through all those position plays without you realising it.

A :-)

Okay, that's easy enough-so there are as many positions as there are frets, right?

But then why say "position" rather than "fret"?

Jack, thanks for posting this. I was in the same boat. And thanks to Alan for the explaination. :D

I've also seen "X position" used when referring to scales as well. I.e., referring to the minor pentatonic, the 1st position is the scale pattern that starts with the root note on the 6th string. So the 1st position of the G minor pentatonic is the pattern that starts at the 3rd fret on the 6th string...

The 2nd position is the next scale pattern up the neck

...and so on...

Okay, that's easy enough-so there are as many positions as there are frets, right?

But then why say "position" rather than "fret"?
Quite possibly it's an "imported" term from non-fretted stringed instruments such as the violin.

We have no position on that.

Does this mean that I don't have to spin my head around 270 degrees when I play in the third position? (breaths HUGE sigh of relief) :roll: :lol:

(although it was effective when I played "Tubular Bells"........

This thread will be a prime candidate for a sticky once it is fully fleshed out! (BTW, I was typing in the sitting position when I did this)

Okay, that's easy enough-so there are as many positions as there are frets, right?

But then why say "position" rather than "fret"?

I was taught that a position can encompass several frets, and as Alan said the position number is based on where your index finger goes. For example, if you are playing one finger per fret at the first position, then it will include frets 1 through 4. 2nd position, frets 2 through 5, and so on.

The problem I have is playing scales (and thus soloing) across positions, up and down the neck.

:slouching:

When most people learn the Minor & Major Pentatonic scales, they learn in "box" patterns. These boxes are "user friendly", they allow you to play the notes of the scale in one postion on the guitar using no more than four frets. This allows you to play the scale without moving your hand up and down the neck. There are five patterns. But the notes are exactly the same in each box.

For instance, in the A Minor Pentatonic scale you have just five notes, A, C, D, E, and G. No matter which position you are in, these are the only notes you are going to play. Here are the 1st and 2nd positions of the A Minor Pentatonic scale. The 1st postion is located at the 5th fret (based on index finger position), the 2nd position is the 7th fret (again, always based on the index finger's position). Below is the traditional fingering, i=index, m=middle, r=ring, p=pinky. The actual notes played are shown at the far right.


A Minor Pentatonic 1st position
e-------------------------------5--8- A C
b-------------------------5--8------- E G
g-------------------5--7------------- C D
d-------------5--7------------------- G A
a-------5--7------------------------- D E
e-5--8------------------------------- A C
i p i r i r i r i p i p

Now, if you play these scales you will probably find the 1st position physically easier. And the 1st position is the most widely used position in this scale for this reason.

Now, you might ask why change positions at all if they are the same notes? Good question. :D

The reason is dynamics and attack. Notes played low sound slower but heavier. Notes played high are more exciting and sound faster. Often at the peak of a solo a player will go to high notes to add excitement. They will bring it to a peak. Then they might dive back down to the low notes. The notes are the same, but how they are played makes all the difference.

But you can play a solo in one position, and many players do. :D

As I wrote before, the fingering for the 2nd position is a little more difficult for most players because you are using the middle and pinky fingers especially. Some players avoid the more difficult positions.

But most players find an easy way to move through the boxes or positions. Here is a very common scale run in the A Minor Pentatonic that starts in the 5th position, slides into the 1st, then slides into the 2nd. Notice that you mostly use the index and ring fingers, and do not use the pinky at all. So it is EASY. Plus, the slides add dynamics to the scale.

Scale run through positions 5, 1, and 2
V I II
e----------------------------------8-10- C D
b----------------------------8-10------- G A
g-------------------5--7/-9------------- C D E
d-------------5--7---------------------- G A
a----3—-5/-7---------------------------- C D E
e-5------------------------------------- A
r i r r i r i m m i r i r

Note you are still playing A, C, D, E, and G notes only. But now you are starting in the bass and moving up into the higher treble strings. This is a very popular way of moving through these 3 positions especially.

The 4th position is also very popular because it's fingering is super easy for most players. So, it is the next most popular position to the 1st postion.

A Minor Pentatonic 4th position
e------------------------------------12-15-
b-----------------------------13-15--------
g----------------------12-14---------------
d---------------12-14----------------------
a--------12-15-----------------------------
e-12-15------------------------------------
i p i p i r i r m p i p

But....

There is another sliding scale higher up that is very popular. It starts in the 3rd position, slides into the 4th, and then slides into the 5th.

Run through 3rd, 4th, and 5th positions (Am Pent.)
III IV V
e---------------------------------15-17--
b----------------------13-15/-17---------
g---------------12-14--------------------
d----10-12/-14---------------------------
a-12-------------------------------------
e----------------------------------------
r i r r i m i m m i m


Again, this scale is used to avoid the pinky. It uses the middle finger more as you are getting high up on the fingerboard where it gets crowded for large hands.

So, hope this wasn't too much at once. There are five "box" positions, learn each one, then you can play at one position on the neck. But also practice these very popular scales that move through the boxes. :D

I think i missed the boat when box positions were invented. being self taught i didnt learn scales in the correct/conventional way - i just googled an image of the minor/major scale and memorised the whole thing accross the neck. (oops)

As a result i play all over the neck when (as recently pointed out to me in the hear here thread) i could be playing the same stuff in just one position which would make things a whole lot easier. i am now trying to learn "notes" and "intervals" instead, which i hope will help me correct the way i play a bit 8)

Almann1979

There is nothing wrong with using box patterns as a visual aid. Even piano has white and black keys. :roll:

I think it is a little easier to focus on the intervals than actual notes. The Minor Pentatonic starts with the Root, then flatted 3rd, the 4th, 5th, and flatted 7th. When you can relate how these intervals sound you can play. Nobody really thinks notes when playing music, at least I don't, even when I play piano. I would have to play pretty slow to do that. :D

But even on piano they teach you to instantly recognize intervals. You can play fast like that. You don't think notes.

thanks - learning intervals is definately the way i want to go!
guitar playing would be so easy if it wasnt for the fact it is sooooo hard :D
anyway, i suppose you get out what you put in so, as i am on my 6 week summer hols from school, i guess i have the time to learn them.

one quick question - i am planning to learn the roots, 3rds and 5ths first - in the hope this will also help my arpeggio's. is this the right approach?

The teachers here can give a better answer, but yes, learning the intervals is very important.

A technique I have always used is called "target notes". For instance, if I am playing a solo over a 12 bar Blues in the key of A, and using the A Minor Pentatonic as my scale, I want to know where certain notes are. When the song starts with the A chord, I might start my solo with the Root A note. When the progression goes to the D chord, I may begin or end a phrase on the D note (4th). And when it goes to the E chord I want to know where all the E notes are (5th). But the flatted 7th is good too, it is one of the "blue" notes. So I might throw some G notes in over the A chord. And C is the flatted 3rd of A which is also called a blue note(it is also the flatted 7th for the D chord, and the flatted 3rd for the E chord). So you throw some C notes in there to give the solo a bluesy feel. So this is what targeting notes is, looking for certain particular notes you play over the chords in a progression. Often you can actually hear the chord progression in your solo, even if there is no rhythm guitar. Here is a super simple example, all notes are from the A Minor Pentatonic scale 1st position.

A lick
e---------------------
b--5------------------
g-------7----5--------
d-----------------7---
a---------------------
e---------------------
1 2 3 4

These licks are exactly identical except for the last note. Play a standard 12 bar Blues:

A/A/A/A/D/D/A/A/E/D/A/E

Now play the A lick over the A chords, the D lick over the D chords, and the E lick over the E chords. Of course this is super simple, you probably don't want to play something like this, but you get the idea. But see, you can hear the progression in your solo even without rhythm guitar. All by simply "targeting" the root of each chord as the last note in a phrase. So yes, you want to know each note by name and interval. I was just saying you can't be thinking notes while you play. :D