reading music

Well this is getting interesting and I have to agree for the most part with Arjen.

There is no denying that in certain situations reading music would be a necessity, but for the most part it isn't.

I would never say that it's not a good thing to know because it is but, I would say it's far from necessary to become a good player and I think that's the difference. Reading music does not in any way shape or form allow you to play your instrument better and that's all I really care about..the ability to play the instrument proficiently and the two are seperate skills.

No matter whether you can read music or know a lot of theory those are the more cerebral aspects of being a musician, but the most important skill and the one that other people interact with is the physical aspect of actually PLAYING....that's all that matters...if you can play your butt off then who cares if you can read music or no theory...that is the whole intent of playing isn't it.

I never heard anyone say man Yngvie can really read standard notation and man does he know his theory..who cares...all anyone cares about are the sounds he can make with his guitar...the physical aspect of playing.

I started late in life and I will never sit and write music for other instruments, nor will I ever sit in a studio session or any of the one or two other areas where reading might be important...so why would I waste one precious minute of what limited playing time I have left, to pracice a skill that is really irrelevant to me. I'd much rather spend my time on actually learning how to play.

Here's a generalization I would make. If you are under 30 and are learning the instrument I'd say learn to read music if you are over 30 than think hard about your goals and then decide for yourself.

It would be interesting to poll all the people that can read music and of those that aren't teachers or studio musicians ask them how often do they actually use that skill, probably little to none.

On the lighter side, I only want to play rock & roll and I can't remember the last time I saw a rock concert with the gutarist playing from some sheet music on stage.

I suppose the more I learn about music the more I want to learn about music and I see no reason to deny myself a useful tool.

(And learning to read standard notation doesn't mean that you'd need to have the sheet music on stage to play......?)

If it's worth the time to learn tab, then it's worth the time to learn standard notation. Bear in mind that most of the musicians we're talking about who can't read standard notation are also good enough that they certainly don't bother with tab either. Malmsteen, Lennon, Harrison, McCartney don't use tab either. So if we admit that we find it handy to learn tab, it would make sense that it's also useful to learn standard notation -- especially if we decide to learn something that hasn't been tabbed out but is only available in standard notation.

Created a quick poll to get something of an overview, hope the mdos don't mind.

Mus,

I think someone once said "If it makes you happy then it can't be that bad"...anyway if you enjoy learning to read std notation and it's useful to you then do it.

For the majority of people that want to play guitar it isn't a prerequisite.

There's nothing wrong with doing it, I think the point that Arjen and I are trying to make(sorry Arjen if I'm incorrect) is that for most people it is not necessary to know that's all.

Everyone has different goals/desires and for some learning to read music is not one.

Here's a generalization I would make. If you are under 30 and are learning the instrument I'd say learn to read music if you are over 30 than think hard about your goals and then decide for yourself.

What I find really interesting is that in general, students under the age of 20 almost always question the value of reading music... and students over the age of about 45 never do.

Yes, it's about performance, not reading ability or theory. In practical terms, though - outside of teaching and studio stuff:

1. over the course of my career I've probably played more than 4000 different songs. Just last month I got hired by a singer who gave me her playlist... and of 70+ songs she does, I knew five. If you've got to learn songs fast, there is no substitute for standard notation. Even though I could (and in fact, did) find all but one of the songs she covers in tab form on the internet, I transcribed every single one to standard notation. Why? Because when we're gigging, if I get lost, I can find my place by the shape of the melody - you just can't do that with tab. Now it's true that the nature of her gigs means I can have a music stand on stage. But I do the same thing in rock settings - it's simply faster to learn and memorize tunes from notes than tab for a number of reasons.

2. At least once a month, on average, I'll get a gig where I am given music in standard notation by a bandleader. About half the time, I'm given that music at the gig. Most of the guitarists I know don't run into that. Why? Because the bandleaders know they can't read, so they don't get the call. My competition for those jobs is very, very small... even though there may be lots of other guitarists who are 'better' than I am at playing the tunes. Those jobs also tend to pay very well, often more than triple those gigs where I have lots of competition.

Oh, and Malmsteen does use tab, Tim - he can't read standard notation. He's the current poster boy for "here's why I don't need to read" crowd. That also means he probably spends weeks to months figuring out a Paganini piece to play it - not very efficient, when you can find the standard notation music at the local library and save yourself the trouble :)

Tom,

You are one of the few that have a real need to learn to read music.

I can see why teenagers would question the value since most don't want to work hard a things and reading music isn't something that's done quickly.

For me all I want to do is to PLAY music, at best in a cover band in some bar. The songs I would play I would memorize. I will NEVER sit in with a vocalist to play their songs cold, I will NEVER write music for other instruments or for any other person and I will never perform in a situation that has a bandleader and is playing of std notation.

All I want to do is to play a bunch of rock songs and have fun...reading std notation for me is not only unnecessary but to me a waste of time, time that could be much better spent at increasing my tremolo picking, learning syncopated rhythms, working on phrasing etc.

To me the physical aspects of the guitar far outweigh the theoretical.

I think someone used the term musical monkey or something like that....well I guess that's me I want to be a musical monkey able to regurgitate the songs I've loved to hear for years...if that makes me less of a musician or a hack or whatever else so be it...but that's me.

Read music or play great

Read music or play great

I feel a commercial coming on.

I started late in life and I will never sit and write music for other instruments, nor will I ever sit in a studio session or any of the one or two other areas where reading might be important...so why would I waste one precious minute of what limited playing time I have left, to pracice a skill that is really irrelevant to me. I'd much rather spend my time on actually learning how to play.

I agree 100%...while I don't consider it a bad thing to be able to read music, it's not essential, especially considering that for guitar there are so many styles of playing that don't really require the ability to read. In the end, the ear should trumph notation anyway, and there is a lot of nuance that's really hard to notate. I go for feel everytime over "correctness."

And one thing you've hit on, and which I love about the guitar, is that there's really no wrong way to do it. Do what you love to do with the guitar, and don't worry about what you "should" know or learn. If you want to play rock and roll for example, and that's what you really love, then do that, and don't worry about learning how to play over jazz changes or read classical music...though still not a bad thing if you ever want to try something different...

Here's a generalization I would make. If you are under 30 and are learning the instrument I'd say learn to read music if you are over 30 than think hard about your goals and then decide for yourself.

I teach a guitar class, and one thing I've noticed (and I've also read the same thing in a article by bluegrass guitarist/teacher Steve Kaufmen), is that generally adults don't want to learn music, and it's really not something you should force on them. The adults in my class for the most part just want to learn some chords and strum patterns so they can learn how to play a few songs. A couple eventually wanted to learn lead guitar - pentatonics and and scales, which are easy enough to learn without music.

The kids, on the other hand, are pretty responsive to learning how read...it almost seems normal to them, and I'm guessing that in many cases they've already experienced notation in school in band, orchestra or choir.

Originally I taught myself theory and how to read (I was under 20), and one thing I discovered was that theory and notation told me what it was I already knew how to play...I could hear it, I just didn't know what to call it...
It would be interesting to poll all the people that can read music and of those that aren't teachers or studio musicians ask them how often do they actually use that skill, probably little to none.

For me, even if you remove the teaching and studio work (mostly on penny whistle, of all things), I still read and write music daily...I've picked up gigs because I could read, and I have a part-time job as a music arranger for a small church group. Of course, I played in rock bands for years, and never even thought about notating any of that. Just learned songs off records (umm...CDs I mean) or wrote them ourselves. Anyway, my musical interests are varied (and I play several instruments), so I may be an exception, but for the most part I bet your assumption is a good one.
On the lighter side, I only want to play rock & roll and I can't remember the last time I saw a rock concert with the gutarist playing from some sheet music on stage.

And some of those guys probably do read...I have one gig where everybody in the band has to use sheet music. It's funny, because I can read and I write some of the arrangments, but I almost never use music myself...:)

What I find really interesting is that in general, students under the age of 20 almost always question the value of reading music... and students over the age of about 45 never do.

A factor might be that younger people tend to value the 'practical over theoretical rockstar-image' approach higher on average then 45 year old people. Know plenty of people who don't read purely because that's not a cool thing to do. The classic 'Hendrix didn't read either!' argument. While they might never need it in their lives their agrumentation is certainly flawed and they might regret that later.

I find it interesting that one of the argument lines for not learning to read standard notation is one of "well what I really want to do is play, so why should I waste my time learning to read, they're not the same thing."

In my life I've personally met thousands of musicians. Of those I've met, the one's who's playing I respect could all read standard music notation and of that set, the one's I've talked to about it, all valued it as an important tool in being able to become a good player.

I can not think of one guitarist I personally know whose skills I admire who doesn't read standard notation.

I know lots of younger players who can rip up the 30 or 40 songs they have memorized, but can only play a single genre, have no skills outside their own limited world. They might be great shred metal lead guys, for example, but I can't say I admire their skills. They're solos tend to be repeatitive and unoriginal, they're chord choices (when they actually play a chord) tend to be mundane and expected.

On the other hand, I've met some folks who can play with anyone in any style and hold their own. They've been exposed to a huge variety of music and their playing reflects that. Their solos blend elements from many styles and tend to be surprising and really interesting . . . and for some reason all of them read standard notation at least passsibly well.

Now, maybe my sample is in some way skewed, but frankly, I've heard the same from other guitarists I know.

Being able to read music means that you have the opportunity to be exposed to a much wider range of music, and that in turn means you have the opportunity to learn and master a wider variety of skills as a practical player.

I don't doubt that there are lots of people who see no value in learning to read as their own musical aspirations are currently very limited in scope and so they see it as a waste of time.

I wonder how many of them, if they stick to playing guitar for many decades, will take that same view much later in their life, though, and how many will regret that they didn't learn the skill?

I agree that the ability to read music is very important, in fact I agree with almost your entire post...I read treble and bass clef, alto clef for viola, not to mention percussion and drum set staff. I've learned to read on every instrument I play (to some degree or another) and studied classical music theory and composition at university.

However, I don't think the ability to read music necessarily equates with talent. If I remember correctly, Allan Holdsworth can't read music (I wouldn't call his solos repeatitive and unoriginal :) ), nor can Eddie Van Halen (Van Halen may have a more limited musical vocabulary than Holdsworth, but he is good at his thing)...Paul McCartney doesn't read and wrote some great songs and bass lines...and though not a guitar player (that I'm aware of), I believe that film composer Hans Zimmer has limited reading ability. Of course, those guys are super talents....:) I'm guessing that there are hundreds of guitar players who have great talent but can't read, and just as many who can read but don't have much talent :)

That all said, I'd still encourage everyone to learn how to read music, even a little, for exactly the same reasons you've posted...but as a musician who can read music, I can say that I've been blown away more than once by a musician who couldn't :)

King,

If your quote is from me it's not quite correct. Yes all I want to do is be able to play fluently and I don't see the inability to read music as a hinderence to doing this. As a matter of fact the two aren't even really related skills, they are independant of each other.

This is for my specific case only, being in my 40's and still struggling with both the physical aspects of playing and the other time constraints like work etc., I feel my time is much better spent learning to actually play something that someone else finds enjoyable.

Would it be nice to be able to read music, yes it would be, and as I said earlier if I were in my teens or twenties with the possibility of doing something with my playing I would invest the time.

The only real reason for me to learn to read std notation is that if I found I song I really wanted to play and I could only find a std notation version. Then it would be nice.

But all of the other pro's that have been listed for being able to read don't apply to me (nor will it for 70 - 80%) of people that play the guitar.

You have to pick your poison and I choose not to devote time to this exercise.

Somehow I get the feeling there's some sort of eletism going on with the people that read music, as if knowing this skill makes them superior in some way. Because they took the time to learn it they look down on anyone that hasn't. I think this is along the line of Arjen's barfight analogy.

The only other area where I see this eletism is playing golf. If you go to your local club the majority of low handicap golfers tend to look down on beginners and god forbid they have to play in a foursome with you. Not quite the same but similar.

Do you think that being able to read, write and do basic math is part of being a functional person in 21st Century America?

Does the fact that there are people living in the backwoods of TN or along the South Texas border who can't and survive just fine make you wrong?

If you do think being able to read, write and do basic math is part of being a functional person in 21st century America, are you elitist for thinking so?
As a matter of fact the two aren't even really related skills, they are independant of each other.

I don't think that is an entirely true statement.
.but as a musician who can read music, I can say that I've been blown away more than once by a musician who couldn't

I'm not saying I haven't been either. However, I was making the point about musicians I've met. There are people at all ends of the bell curve, I don't deny that. The people having this conversation, however, aren't the 1-in-a-billion talent who can just do anything and succeed because God or nature or chance or whatever deemed they should be so gifted. Moreover, general principles are not aimed at the far ends of the bell curve, general principles are general because they apply to the 99% of folks in the middle.

This topic has come up Lord knowshow many times in the six years I've been working at Guitar Noise. This is, fortunately, one of the more intelligent conversations about it.

What often intrigues me, though, is why it seems to come down to an "either/or" choice? Even those of you who don't think it's worth all the bother to read standard notation don't have anything bad to say about it. And those who swear by it are quick to point out the good points of TAB.

SoI can't help but wonder if the point is might simply be, why should Ilearn to read it, whoever the "I" might happen to be. And that is all about personality and not about either TAB or notation. Someone who doesn't want to isn't going to no matter how compelling the argument might be.

There are a lot of excuses not to. And that, is truly what they are "excuses," not reasons. That's perfectly okay. I have the same thing with practice time. I may cite many "reasons" for my not practicing (or learning to read music or joining a jam or whatever) but the truth is that if I did want to do so, I'd make the time and effort to do so.

It may take time to learn to read standard notation well enough to be a studio musician, but for most people's need, you can learn what you need to know in less than two week's time, spending far less than an hour a day on it. Like everything about the guitar, the more you put into it the quicker you learn.

Is it worth it? I can't answer that for you, obviously. But where I come from it is another tool to help me get better as a guitarist and as a musician. And everyone here, both for and against notation has agreed to that. So why on earth would I want to pass it up?

Am I going to get good at it? Probably not as good as I'd like to or as fast as I'd like to, but I'm smart enough to know that's part of the learning process as well.

Either way, I'm certain that people will continue to weigh in on both sides of this subject for at least another six years... :wink:

Peace

People that can read are far from eletist or snobs.
I just held exception to a statement made close to the beginning of this thread "Most people would not benifit from learning to read standard notation"
The first time you pick up a piece of sheet music, you have benefitted.
It is a tool. I can have a toolbox and not include a socket set, ok, I can get by most of the time with an adjustable wrench, but there are times when that socket set sure would come in handy and even times where it is absolutely neccesary, it sure would be nice to have it in there.
I may not gig but I do like to play a song or two from my copy of "The Real Book" and if I couldn't read standard notation that would be inpossible as I believe "The Real Book" is only available in standard notation.
If you are young don't limit what tools you have in your tool box. IMHO it is easier to learn to read standard notation as you learn to play rather than later on.

I'm 18, started a year ago and am making sure I get my site reading down packed. The reason is that if you want to TRULY understand music and write music efficently, the tool is particullarly useful. Furthermore, there are songs that you can have somewhat a feel for but not know the notes to and with standard notation you can play along with the song and read off the sheets. I find with tab you just can't do this. For instance, lets say you have a rest notation on the melody (frequently used in spanish pieces) you can see that and know what direction the song is going...this just isn't possible without seeing the whole tab and knowing the song. Secondly, what if you don't have a recording of the song, a tab is useless. And, if you do have a recording, you have to keep going back and listening time and time again to the same part to get the rythm of it down. Can you play guitar without learning how to read music? Of course you can, but I think it's very hard to make an arguement that it won't benefit your play and your understanding by knowing how to read it. Tab has it's place in todays music world and is particularly handy, but notation is a great skill to have and your cheating yourself by not learning.