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A couple tuning questions

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(@steve-0)
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After playing a while, i've noticed that my guitar goes out of tune when i use my tremelo bar, not only that, but it also goes out of tune when i bend the unwound strings (G, B and E strings). When I first encountered this problem I took my guitar into the shop and they fixed the problem for a couple of days and the problem returned, all they did was a normal guitar setup. The guitar has a normal tremelo (non floyd rose tremelo) and has no locking tuners or a locking nut. I've noticed that it's mainly the 3 unwound strings that go out of tune, however if i do go nuts and really bend the wound strings or do a monster dive with the tremelo bar it the wound strings will go out of tune. Should I just take it back to the shop that did the setup on it? Any help on this problem would be greatly appreciated.

Steve-0


   
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 Mike
(@mike)
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I don't have any experience with the tremelo bars but, if it keeps doing it bring it back to the shop and show them what you are doing and what is happening.

I'm sure someone will chime in with a logical explanation. But, that's it for me.


   
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(@forrok_star)
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Without someway of locking the strings, they will go out of tune when pushing down on the tremolo and when you bend a string the tremolo lifts up which will cause other strings to become loose. You may want to try over lapping the strings around the tuners so they stay. Wrap the string around the tuner at least three times and overlap them as you go around the tuner before you put it through the hole. This may help.

Worth a try.

joe


   
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(@slothrob)
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What Joe says is crucial. This is one of those things you often forget to mention when talking about vibrato bar problems, but the strings must be wound in such a way as to lock them in place. Here's a pretty good picture of how it is done. Basically, you want the end of the string to be trapped under the windings and you make at least 3 windings to hold the strings securely in place.
You can also do this, as joe suggested by first winding around the post.
You should also make sure that the tremolo mechanism is properly lubricated to make sure it is returning to it's original position.
I also use a white graphite stick from my local hardware store to place a small amound of lubrication on the bridge saddles, where the string makes contact, and in the grooves of the nut and on the string trees. This allows the unfixed portion of the string to move as smoothly as possible and not get hung up returning to tune.
If you get frustrated, there are replacement locking tuners and locking nuts that deal with this problem.


   
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(@nicktorres)
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When you say "normal" tremelo, do you mean without springs?

If it does have a cavity in the back with springs, you may want to check out adding a spring. That will cause the tremelo to come back to the original position more securely, quickly and closer to the original tuning position.


   
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(@slothrob)
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You can also get some relief by adjusting the bridge so it is floating (i.e., allows you to use the bar to shift both flat and sharp), not returning to a position resting against the body (allowing you to ony move flat) which can pevent the bridge from travelling back to where it would be in tune. This also allows you to give the tremolo a small tug to try and bring it back into tune when it does sound a little flat.


   
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(@steve-0)
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Topic starter  

Actually it does have springs, what I mean by a "normal" tremelo is that it is not a floyd rose tremelo and can only drop notes not make them sharp. I'm really interested in that idea of changing the system to make it a floating system, i had no idea you could do that! If you have any info on how to do that and how much it would cost approxametly that would be great.

I'm a bit confused on this new method of re-stringing though, usaully I would just put the string through the tuner, leaving a little slack, then create a few loops (it's a little hard to explain but I know it's how most people do it). I'm just curious from how this method differs from the method i'm used to (sorry, I'm a little slow, i just don't get it, lol).

Steve-0


   
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 Taso
(@taso)
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I honeslty dont think the other method of strining would help very much... Tremelos put your guitar outa tune..they will no matter what you do, unless u have some sort of locking system. (They still can go out of tune, bit its very slight if at all)

http://taso.dmusic.com/music/


   
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(@forrok_star)
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By stringing the guitar the way I suggested of wrapping the string around the tuner first at least three times and over lapping will help some, without locking the strings on both ends it will still go out of tune. By adding another spring will make the tremolo stiffer and will hold the bridge in place while bending.

Joe


   
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(@slothrob)
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One reason one might go out of tune is because the tunes might turn: Locking tuners deal with this problem.
Another reason is that the string can slip in the tuning pegs: A "locking" tie made when stringing the guitar can solve this problem.
Yet another reason is string catching on the string trees or the nut grooves: Lubrication can help this, a locking nut will solve this and, probably, the previous two problems.
Then there are all the bridge issues.

I don'y know how everyone strings their guitar, but what I would recommend to anyone with tuning instability is: either leave some slack or wrap the string at least once around the peg on the larger strings, pass the string thru the peg hole, wrap this end (winding backwards) to the hole you inserted the string into, pass the string end underneath the string at the point just before it first enterred the peg hole and trap the string under that first winding, kind of pulling it up at a 90° angle. Then turn the key to bring the guitar to tune. I don't overlap any of the additional winding, so that there is no place for the string to slip off an overlap. I also wind down (toward the head stock, so that the taper of the peg will tend to push the strings into a tight coil that traps the reverse wrap between the first and second coil.
I use a Bigsby style tremolo with neither locking tuners nor nut and play some surf and Chris Isaaks with little tuning difficulty. But, I don't do a lot of divebombing and it's not like my Tele that I might only tune once or twice a day. I guess it's all perception, besides I'm helf deaf and less talented.

As far as a floating bridge, it is confusing because some bridges are called floating, but most, if not all, vibratos can be set up as floating. Floating means that the bar can be moved forewards or back, to lower or higher pitch. On a "traditional" bridge, as I think you have, this means setting up the bridge so there is a 1/8" gap between the back of the bridge and the body of the guitar when everything is in tune. There is a reasonable explanation as to how to do this on the Mrgearhead website.


   
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(@noteboat)
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There's really two issues here: the strings don't return to tune when you use the tremolo, and the guitar goes out of tune on a big bend.

Individual strings go out of tune for a few reasons: they stretch, they slip at the tuner, the tuner itself slips, or the bridge end reseats when the tremolo springs return full tension. Pre-stretching your strings is critical. 'Locking' the string at the tuner will help, as will making sure you don't have too many windings - no more than 3 - around the tuning peg (extra windings will 'crush' against each other, producing slack that gets pulled through the tuning peg, and you go flat). Make sure your strings have ends that mate well with your bridge - Fender makes their bullet end strings specifically to minimize re-seating problems.

The bend issue is different.... when you bend a string, you're increasing the tension, which pulls on the bridge. Since the tremolo allows the bridge to move, the big bend pulls the bridge forward, making all of the other strings flat until the bend is released. There's no fix to this problem - it's the cost of being able to use the vibrato. If you do huge bends and combine them with non-bent notes, do those tunes on an axe without a tremolo, or get your chops and ear together enough to bend the 'non-bent' note enough to come up to pitch.

Guitar teacher offering lessons in Plainfield IL


   
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(@steve-0)
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Topic starter  

well, thanks for all the posts, I'm probably gonna take my guitar into that shop again and just have them have a look at it. I really doubt it is a problem with the bridge because why would I be hearing the snapping or popping noise from the headstock rather than the bridge? Anyways, it seems most likely that it is either a problem with either lubrication/string slipping or i need locking tuners... which leads to another topic, should I spend the 100$ to get it fully up to par if the guitar is only worth about
300$? I don't have a job and my income is quite limited, so buying a better guitar is temporarily out of the question. I could afford the cost of a locking tuner or other repairs so long as i save up a bit. I really like the sound of the guitar (especially through a nice fender tube amp), but the tuning has always been a problem (I wish I could paint it a different colour too, but that's another post, lol). I guess for now I'll just get an estimate of how much it'll cost and go from there.

Steve-0


   
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(@slothrob)
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That popping sound has to be the strings catching on something or slipping. Before spending money, would try lubricating the points on the headstock and make sure the strings are on well. Did you change to larger strings at some point? Is it possible the strings are too wide for the grooves in the nut? Also, if you have vintage style string trees (the sort-of-butterfly-shaped-ones), you might want to consider the modern (sort-of-T-shaped-ones) which can allow the string to move more smoothly. These are simple to replace (just try not to strip the hole in the headstock) for about $12.

If you like the sound of the guitar, then 300+100 or $400 is a very reasonable price to pay for a good guitar. Certainly cheaper than most decent new guitars, and you will know you've dealt with the problems on this one. A new one might well have it's own issues.


   
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(@steve-0)
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Topic starter  

Yeah, I took it into the shop and he said exactly that, so right now the nut is being slotted... sadly, the tremelo problem can't be fixed but hopefully it won't go out of tune as horribly as it did.

Steve-0


   
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(@slothrob)
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I hope all turns out well.


   
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