A couple tuning questions

I'd figure I'd give you guys a follow up. The guy at the shop told me the problem was at the nut and it was impossible for a tremelo unit to stay in tune without a locking system. When I got it home it played nicely... for about 30 minutes! Nowadays it goes out of tune just as bad as before. Interestingly, after I finish using the whammy bar... if I take the strings and pull them with force while fretting the strings, the strings return to their original tuning (well, close enough). I would take the guitar back to the shop again but I'm starting to lose trust with those guys, I'm thinking of maybe just putting the money into buying locking tuners, adding a few springs and adjusting it to make it a floating bridge. Before I do that, I'm going to re-string the guitar using the overlap method that alot of people mentioned and see if that helps the guitar not go out of tune.

Oh, before I forget. I've heard that powder and liquid graphite can help tuning instability as well, has anyone ever tried this? if so, how well did it work? Finally, would it be better to just install locking tuners or go for an entire floyd rose locking system? (because I heard those lock at both the tuners and the bridge). Thanks in advance to any replies.

I put a little pencil lead in the slots once in a while, but it looks like, for your guitar, you probably should just go for it and get the Floyd installed if possible.

What sort of guitar is it anyway?

I was just reading what slothrob said about the string-trees. Is there any way you can post of picture of the headstock and how things are strung and set there?

Well, it's a rare model (whether that's good or bad, i'm not sure). It's a VMP, blue... that's about as much information as I can tell you because I honestly don't know any more! I can't even find any information (like, any websites or anything) about the guitar company so I really wonder if it even exists any more. The guitar itself isn't bad though, it sounds pretty decent through a nice tube amp. I just think the makers overlooked the consequences of putting a tremelo system into the guitar, i dunno.

Looks like I'll be going with the floyd rose set up then, I'm not looking forward to the hefty price of a floyd rose, but what can you do.

I'd figure I'd give you guys a follow up. The guy at the shop told me the problem was at the nut and it was impossible for a tremelo unit to stay in tune without a locking system.

I think someone's trying to sell a locking system. With a proper setup, decent non-locking tremelos will stay in tune pretty well. You can't go completely crazy like you can with a locking system, but they work.

Actually, how reasonable would it be to, rather than install an expensive (well, expensive for me) floyd rose tremelo, install a fixed bridge (no tremelo whatsoever) I know I probably could get one pretty cheap but would it be hard to install myself? Likewise, would it be expensive if someone else installed it.

In some previous posts it was mentioned that having a fixed (or blocked) trem wouldn't be an option because of the playing style. If you were going to do that you could just block the trem. Just cost you a block of wood pretty much.

I'm still thinking of the string trees though. Maybe they're too low to the front of the headstock, or the string is catching on the edge of them. A pic of the headstock would be helpful, just to see what the setup is like.

alright, I'll see if I can get you a pic of the headstock of the guitar.

well, unfortunatly I can't get any pictures till maybe later on today or tommorow (i don't really own a camera, but I might be able to borrow someone's). I think you may have a point with the headstock though, because the nut has been slotted and I hear a *ping* noise coming from the headstock whenever I bend a string and even when I am tuning the string. Could I maybe need new tuners or could it be something else?

The gears in real old tuners can slip. It doesn't take much of a slip to make a big difference in the tone. And if it slips it'll make a 'ping' for sure.

Another thing is the angle of the bottom of the slot for each string. It shouldn't be too steep (thinking of the cross-section of the nut, and then thinking of the 'ramp' of the bottom of the inside of the string slot), nor should it be too level. It should match the angle of the string as it comes off the 'front' of the nut (towards where the frets are), and follow that angle to the tuning pegs. It could be a newly done nut and all, but it could also have been done hurriedly and without checking.

Still, it was a pro doing it.

Anyhow, could be old tuners with worn gears, could be old tuners where the tension screw is loose, could be also the collets around the post of the tuners not being all the way down, could be also the tuners themselves not being screwed in tight (at the back), and moving around slightly. Any slight wobble or movement from any of these places could cause instability, but if there's a combination of factors, it would not only be harder to trace, but would add up to things being way off.

If the tuners are open -- meaning you can look in the back and see the gears -- then you might tighten up that main screw holding the wheel looking gear. And if there's a tension screw at the center of the tuning knob itself, you might tighten it there too. Closed tuners won't give you the chance to tighten the main screw, but might allow you to tighten the knob part.

Some of the collets around the tuning post at the frontside of the headstock are the screw in kind; others just sort of push in there. The idea behind both is to help the post remain stable as it comes through from the other side. If the collets are loose, you could turn them to tighten, if possible. If not, maye a touch of wood glue might help.

And if all the screws holding the tuners to the back of the headstock are tight, there's not much more you can do. If not, tighten them carefully so as to not strip the wood.

And those are the only other things that come to mind except for the string trees.

Anyhow, hope this helps a little more.

Take care.

Well, some positive news. I tightened the screws on the tuners and it stayed in tune... for a couple minutes. I definitly think that it helped but I'm starting to think that there are only two things left to do: replace the string trees or replace the entire tuning system on the headstock (not the including the bridge). Now, I THINK that I have the newer style of string trees: the "T" shaped ones but I could be wrong... if this helps, they kind of look like this:

/__/

(this would be the view looking down at the guitar from the headstock)

it has a screw going down the flat middle part and the strings go under the part that looks like a bump or a cliff. lol, sorry about the ridiculous illustration but it's the best i can do right now.

THE PROBLEM HAS BEEN FIXED! I figured I'd try the idea that someone posted: "Maybe the string trees are too low". So I took my trusty screwdriver and began to loosen the screw that holds the string trees on and bingo! I can bend as much as I want now and even use the tremelo from time to time and it stays in tune. Thanks for all the help and patience everyone.

The modern string trees look like this:

These may give you less friction and solve your problem or you could try Graphtech or some roller trees. The cost about $3 to $5 at StewMac.com.

Yeah, I have the older ones. Thanks, I think I'll replace them.