Intonation fine but low E string out of tune when fretted

It appears when fretting it at 2nd/3rd/4th fret it goes sharp
Is it only on these frets that your low E goes sharp ?

If the intonation is good across the rest of the neck (especially at higher frets on your low E) i think you are either pressing too hard or there is a problem with the string itself...

maybe a string manufacturing fault.. Did you put on a new set of strings when you shaved the saddle ?? have you only had the 1 set of string on it since the setup ?? it could be a manufacturing fault in the string itself... try a new set..

Mechanically i can't think of any other reason why it would do this. Unless your frets are severly uneven which you would more than likely notice...

Only had the one set of strings on since I did the setup. In fact, the reason I replaced the saddle was because my old one was cracked and I noticed this soon after putting on this set of strings. Anyhoo, it means I've loosened off these strings significantly and retightened several times during the course of getting the saddle setup properly.

I've just checked the tuning up the length of the neck (for the E string) and it appears to be the worst on the 2nd fret, but it's slightly sharp still nearly all the way up to the 12th.

Given what I've done to these strings though I guess it's entirely possibly there is some anomaly going on there. Would be a shame though since their the nicest strings I've had albeit expensive (Elixir Nanowebs ;)) ... was hoping to get decent life out of them. :D

Strings can cause intonation problems when they get stretched in localised spots, which does happen when they get old.

Think of stretching Blu-tak without breaking it, you'll normally find that most of it stretches a little, but some places stretch a lot and get really thin. When this happens to a guitar string, that thinner spot is effectively a different gauge to the rest of the string, because there is less mass in that section.

From your description, it sounds like that string has one or more somewhere around the 5th fret. When you fret on the 5th, you don't get the problem because the problem is not in the vibrating part of the string, but when you fret on the 4th or lower, it starts to take effect.

I've been trying to do the intonation on a friend's guitar, but he's only just replaced the strings. Until he did it was impossible, because the top E saddle wouldn't move forward far enough to correct for the string. Once he changed the strings, no problem, and the saddle sits pretty much in the middle of its range.

Thanks for the responses guys. This certainly sounds like it might be the case ... just unfortunate it's happened with my most expensive string purchase to-date. :D

Methinks your intonation isn't perfect, but then would you want it to be? Most guitars go off at certain frets because equal temperament and Pythagorean tuning are not identical. the question is, can you live with it because it's close, or is it so bad that it needs work?

Best,

A :-)

Methinks your intonation isn't perfect, but then would you want it to be? Most guitars go off at certain frets because equal temperament and Pythagorean tuning are not identical. the question is, can you live with it because it's close, or is it so bad that it needs work?
HI Alan,

I can certainly live with it. I reckon part of it is simply that my ear is developing, so I'm starting to notice little imperfections. Nevertheless, I'll carry on as is and monitor it over time ... maybe it's a sign I should buy another guitar. :P

Btw, can I ask what you mean by "equal temperament" and "Pythagorean tuning"? I'm trying to put what knowledge I have of Pythagorus into the context of guitar tuning, and failing miserably. :D

My money is on the nut.

As you get farther from the nut the amount of stretch downward to the fret decreases so the amount of out of whack intonation decreases.

Btw, can I ask what you mean by "equal temperament" and "Pythagorean tuning"? I'm trying to put what knowledge I have of Pythagorus into the context of guitar tuning, and failing miserably. :DStick those phrases, in the quotation marks, into Google. You'll find lots of stuff to keep you entertained for a long while.

Slightly sharp all the way up tells me your strings are probably dirty/old.

The pitch a string produces depends on the string length, tension, and mass. As strings age, they pick up more mass (oils from your fingers, dust from the air, added molecules of oxygen/sulpher as strings rust and corrode, etc.)

Since the old string is getting heavier, it's getting lower... and you increase the tension to bring it back to pitch.

But the problem is the mass is no longer equally distributed. There will be more mass on the peghead half of the string - because you're always touching the strings there. So when you fret a string, it's got less mass than it's supposed to at the 'x' fret... and it sounds sharp.

I'm betting a string change fixes the problem.

Thanks for all the advice guys. The strings are only about four weeks old, but as mentioned they've been through a bit during the 're-saddling' process.

It's not all that obvious so I'll keep using this set for awhile longer then change 'em and see what results I get. :)

Fine, don't believe me.

Check out this page by Frank Ford.

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/GenSetup/NutAction/nutaction.html

Fine, don't believe me.

Check out this page by Frank Ford.

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/GenSetup/NutAction/nutaction.html
Thanks Nick. Just had a quick look at that link but I'm having trouble understanding how it can cause my issue. Is it a case of my low E string sitting to high, or too low, as a result of some anomaly with the nut groove for that string? Or is it that I haven't worked the relatively new strings into place by using signifcant pressure around the first fret? :?

Nevertheless, I'll check out the tests from that link when I get home tonight.

Thanks again. :)

I forgot the smiley. Feel free not to believe me, sometimes it's for the best. :D

What happens is the nut isn't cut deep enough or the string is hanging up in the slot. When that happens the string needs to stretch to reach the fretboard. When you stretch the string that miniscule amount it changes the string length. Once the string length is changed, intonation is off. The further away from the nut end you are, the less it stretches and the closer intonation gets to on. I don't hear it all that much on the first one or two frets because they all stretch a bit there. I find frets 3-5 are where it is most obvious.

I forgot the smiley. Feel free not to believe me, sometimes it's for the best. :D
That's okay mate. The smiley was implicit. :P
What happens is the nut isn't cut deep enough or the string is hanging up in the slot. When that happens the string needs to stretch to reach the fretboard. When you stretch the string that miniscule amount it changes the string length. Once the string length is changed, intonation is off. The further away from the nut end you are, the less it stretches and the closer intonation gets to on. I don't hear it all that much on the first one or two frets because they all stretch a bit there. I find frets 3-5 are where it is most obvious.
Thanks mate. That makes perfect sense now, and I can see now how it could explain my specific issue. :)