Tube volume vs. Solid state

40w tube=100w solid

http://users.chariot.net.au/~gmarts/amppower.htm
I sincerely hope I never see a PMPO rating on a guitar amp, but we all know that a valve amplifier is noticeably louder than the same power solid state amplifier.   How can this be?   Using the calculations above, there is perhaps a 3dB difference, which would mean about double the power!

Of course this is not the case, but there are reasons for the perceived difference.   Most guitar playing is percussive in nature - there is a strong but brief burst of volume as you strike the string, then the note gradually decays to a lower level.  

Valve amplifiers exhibit a smooth transition into and out of overdrive, so for example, a 100 watt amp sounds only a little more distorted when trying to deliver 110 watts.   This means that you can drive the amp quite hard with a "musically pleasant" amount of overdrive, that sustains a volume level at the amplifier's maximum power capability.   As the note decays, the volume level changes little while the sound gradually cleans up (sometimes referred to as a "warm bloom").

On the other hand, solid state amplifiers are very clean right up to their maximum power output, then virtually switch to very high distortion levels above this point.   This is hopeless when trying to play percussive sounds around the maximum power output, because the start of the note (the attack) is very distorted and unmusical, then it suddenly becomes clean as the volume dies (perceived as a lack of sustain).   The only way to get a reasonable tone is to turn down and try to operate the amp always below its maximum power capability.   Of course, many solid state guitar amplifiers now try to minimise this effect (also so they can be advertised with valve-like qualities).

The combination of these two effects is what causes the difference in perceived volume between solid state and valve designs.   But in reality 100 watts is 100 watts, whether its valve, solid state or steam driven!

If I understand my father's explanation, the difference in perceived valume comes from the fact that in solid state amps the signal spikes upward after a certain point very rapidly and is clipped hard.  Tubes allow the signal to rise slower throughout the curve (being clipped in a more gradual fashion) and hence reach a higher perceived volume before being cut off.

My sense of it is that some people will gig with a 15 watt tube in smaller clubs or in music where the guitar is part of the mix, but few would use a 15 watt solid state in that situation.

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Though I guess some of them might be miking the tube's superior sound.

i own a marshall dsl100 100w tube amp it kicks ass tube amps are considribly louder than a solid state if you are looking to buy a tube or solid state go with the tube it sounds much better  8)

40w tube=100w solid

mmmmh.....not sure where this came from, but regardless this does not mean you have two and a half times the volume with a tube amp. The relationship between power and volume is logarithmic, naturally.. ;) - in other words, to double the volume you need 10 times the power (or amount of watts) - interesting, no?

So to get twice the amount of "sound" or volume out of a 50w amp, you actually need a 500w amp.

Isn't life just rosey..... :(

My friend has a 120 watt all tube Peavey 5150 half stack.  I have a 40 watt Marshall valvestate (tubes in the preamp and a solid state power section).  I wanted to get something that would not only hang with his 5150 on stage, but something that I could knock him over the head with at parties.  So I bought the 350 watt Marshall Mode Four halfstack.  It also has tubes in the preamp and a solid state power amp.  We have not got the beasts together yet.  Who do you think will come out on top?

A tube amp needs to be cranked to sound good. Neither one of you will be able to do that at a party, unless it's in a gymnasium or outdoors. Neither amp will sound like they could.

Everyone is obsessed with power. What good is a 350W amp that you can never turn past 2?

I play regular in small to medium clubs that seat as many as 200 people. I use either a 40W Fender or a 50W Marshall and they are LOUD.

With a smaller amp, you can crank it and get the true overdriven tube sound.

I was talking to one guitarist who worked as a sound engineer for awhile. He mikes his 15 watt tube Blues Junior and uses the amp itself as a monitor...

And when I was in Austin, even outdoors on the street, the bands with moderate volumes sounded much better.  I've yet to hear a band that was too quiet...

I started this post by asking a very specific question.  Often, discussions in this forum go off on tangents.  

However, since we are where we are let me say this:

It seems every time someone mentions a high power amp in this forum, others criticize and beat them up with stories about how they get the most fantastic sound ever imaginable out of their .0000000000000000001 watt amp.  (ok maybe that is exaggerating, but I'm sure you get my point)  Anyone that has any band experience knows you can mic an amp.  In my band, we like using 1/2 stacks.  For those of you going on and on about your little amps and how great they are, I suggest you go try a Marshall stack.  Better yet buy one and take it to your house where you can really experience it.  Only then, young Jedi, will you understand how great they are.  As a matter of fact, I play my 350 watt Marshall 1/2 stack in my basement while the wife and kids sleep upstairs.  It sound awsome low, it sounds "awsomer" cranked.  I have had many amps: fender 15 watt, crate 30, crate 60 2x12, Marshall 40 watt, Marshall 350 watt.  Can you guess which one I like the most?

Blu I think you'll win by a nose. But that's soley because of the wattage, I don't think the tube preamp will do a thing.

But I'm telling ya as an audience member, everytime I've been to a club it's been too loud to be enjoyable. I really begrude having to wear ear plugs to listen to music. (Then again, I've still got some of my hearing left)

I will go give the Marshall a try at low volumes in the store  ;) It seems there are multiple factors in determing the quality of the sound.

That guitarist I talked about simply prefers the surround sound effect of going through the club speakers instead of deafening the people right up front.  He has access to everything you have and more. But as has been oft said, it comes down to what you like. :)

Hi Blutic 1, This is Wes, who wrote the negative comment. I really didn't mean it to come out like that. Both you and your friends amps are nice. Personally, I will take a Marshall over Peavey everytime. I love Marshall for distortion, and Fender for clean. But that's me.

You don't really expect me to believe you crank that thing while your wife and kids are asleep do you? You must have installed some awesome soundproofing.

I think I was a little frustrated at the industry for promoting power. You yourself said you didn't want to just hang with your buddy, you wanted to be able to knock him over the head. VOLUME WARS EPISODE 5,000,000! When you and your buddy play that party, go for quality sound, not volume. A jackhammer is loud, but not a lot of fun to listen to.

I'm sure in a large club, with a big crowd both amps will sing.

And by the way, I NEVER have to mic my amp at shows. I rarely have to turn Master Volume past 5. But then again, I don't draw 1000 people to a show.

Have fun with your new Amp. MARSHALL IS THE BEST!

Better yet buy one and take it to your house where you can really experience it.

If I do that I'll have the grand experience of being kicked out by my parents. Anyway, to get back to the discussion, the main point some here brought up is that you will not have much need for 350W. Even if you have topclass soundproofing, there simply is no purpose to play that loud in your house, nor will you often play for so many people that this volume is needed.

Does your marshall sound better then my 15W solidstate? I am sure it does. Do you really need that much power? Doubt it. Is it my concern? Not really. Have fun :)

Blu says it sounds good at low volumes- I think I need to go experiment. It's definately more fun than window shopping a new pair of shoes.  :)

I do think the 'I want to blow my friend offstage' tends to send up red flags round here  ;)
An 'I want to mix well with my friend's set-up' would probably have caused less grumbly responses  :)

Blu, you're still going to tell us the results, right?  I'm curious.  :)