Ness K Vs. Cover Bands

All i have to say on the rap thing, even tho i don't really see the relevance to the original post, is If it's good enough for Herbie Hancock, I aint gonna call it dumb. If I could play with half the intelligence that Herbie does I would be the best player on this site ((which i am almost certainly not))

At the end of the day music is all harmony and melody. Style is pretty much just the rhythm and form. Sure, lyrically some of the rap music out there is a bit "special" but so are some of my favourite guitarists' lyrics (Butterflies and Zebras and Moonbeams and Fairytales????)

At the end of the day i think MUSICALLY, there is some very interesting stuff that either has been done or is being done in the world of rap that we can all learn from and apply to our own little worlds (or exclusion zones in some cases)There is a lot of generic crap out there but hey, isn't that true of any and all genres.

PS this thread was originally about cover bands.

At the end of the day music is all harmony and melody. Style is pretty much just the rhythm and form

And that's where things get off-track. Harmony is very typical of the western culture, IMHO it might even be our greatest addition to the culture of the world. The result is that people in the western world have a strong focus, induced through culture, on harmony. Most guitarplayers will start a song by strumming some chords. Melodies are usually pretty simple in western music, and rhythm even more simple.

In other cultures things are different: Arabian music has much more complex melodies and their 'scales' are much more numerous and varied. Harmony however is nearly absent. This is why to many people Arabian music, for example Quran recitals, are just a collection of long, confusing, off-tune whining nonsense to many of us, whereas our western Christian music (Bach, for example) seems much more advanced, sane, structrued and just overall better. African music (South of the Sahara) is really focussed on rhythm, there is no harmony and often no melody either. But the (poly)rhythms are very complex and are the result of pretty complicated interplay between a whole group of different percussionists. I bet 99% of people on this forum do not listen to that music, simply because it lacks what we consider fundamental to music: harmony.

Check the beginners forums: how often do you see people asking 'when do the chords change'? Never, because we hear very easily when a chord changes. How often do you see people asking what the strumming patern is? All the time, because we aren't that good in rhythm. It takes many of us years to just pick out basic 4/4 strumming patterns. Ofcourse we wont like rap, we are listening to all the wrong aspects of sound. Same as why a rap-fan doesnt dig the boring rhythms of pop-vocals. Or why a jazz-fan doesnt like the thin harmonies of pop music. Or why a classical fan doesn't like the lack of timbral variety and dynamics in a rockband compared to an orchestra. Does this mean popmusic is 'bad', and rap even worse? No, it means that you should try to look at it from a different angle if you want to learn to appreciate radically different genres. And if you don't that's fine as well, but in my book it spells style if you can say that without dissing other musicians. I'll blatantly admit I don't specifically enjoy most classical Japanese music but I'm sure that if I would invest the time, energy and concentration I would be able to learn about the music and start to appreciate it, or atleast parts of it. So when Asian music comes up I tend to take a backseat in conversations and keep it at 'I dont know too much off it."

Btw, I'll bet ten bucks that in fifty years we'll be teaching Dr. Dre and Kanye West at conservatories and just like Hendrix and BB King are now 'acceptable' in those places.

Great stuff Ignar. I had to chuckle at one part, though, you say "This is why to many people Arabian music...are just a collection of long, confusing, off-tune whining nonsense to many of us". I happen to be Egyptian and if you were to ask my wife this is EXACTLY how she would explain my attempts at playing the guitar. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Great stuff Ignar. I had to chuckle at one part, though, you say "This is why to many people Arabian music...are just a collection of long, confusing, off-tune whining nonsense to many of us". I happen to be Egyptian and if you were to ask my wife this is EXACTLY how she would explain my attempts at playing the guitar. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Hey, I'm just an old Southern white boy, and that would be a pretty good description of me learning to play, especially since I mostly play with a slide. :mrgreen:

At the end of the day music is all harmony and melody. Style is pretty much just the rhythm and form

And that's where things get off-track. Harmony is very typical of the western culture, IMHO it might even be our greatest addition to the culture of the world. The result is that people in the western world have a strong focus, induced through culture, on harmony. Most guitarplayers will start a song by strumming some chords. Melodies are usually pretty simple in western music, and rhythm even more simple.

In other cultures things are different: Arabian music has much more complex melodies and their 'scales' are much more numerous and varied. Harmony however is nearly absent. This is why to many people Arabian music, for example Quran recitals, are just a collection of long, confusing, off-tune whining nonsense to many of us, whereas our western Christian music (Bach, for example) seems much more advanced, sane, structrued and just overall better. African music (South of the Sahara) is really focussed on rhythm, there is no harmony and often no melody either. But the (poly)rhythms are very complex and are the result of pretty complicated interplay between a whole group of different percussionists. I bet 99% of people on this forum do not listen to that music, simply because it lacks what we consider fundamental to music: harmony.

Check the beginners forums: how often do you see people asking 'when do the chords change'? Never, because we hear very easily when a chord changes. How often do you see people asking what the strumming patern is? All the time, because we aren't that good in rhythm. It takes many of us years to just pick out basic 4/4 strumming patterns. Ofcourse we wont like rap, we are listening to all the wrong aspects of sound. Same as why a rap-fan doesnt dig the boring rhythms of pop-vocals. Or why a jazz-fan doesnt like the thin harmonies of pop music. Or why a classical fan doesn't like the lack of timbral variety and dynamics in a rockband compared to an orchestra. Does this mean popmusic is 'bad', and rap even worse? No, it means that you should try to look at it from a different angle if you want to learn to appreciate radically different genres. And if you don't that's fine as well, but in my book it spells style if you can say that without dissing other musicians. I'll blatantly admit I don't specifically enjoy most classical Japanese music but I'm sure that if I would invest the time, energy and concentration I would be able to learn about the music and start to appreciate it, or atleast parts of it. So when Asian music comes up I tend to take a backseat in conversations and keep it at 'I dont know too much off it."

Btw, I'll bet ten bucks that in fifty years we'll be teaching Dr. Dre and Kanye West at conservatories and just like Hendrix and BB King are now 'acceptable' in those places.
I was thinking what about drummers when the melody/harmony card was played. However studying Kanye West? Well its too soon to lay a bet on him specifically even with his greatest of all time persona. Right now the "next big thing" rappers cycle through faster then porn starlets in the constant drive for something new.

I remember after the Rodney King riots a friend was proclaiming some Old Dirty Bastard album as a all time classic. Well all ODB will be remembered as is one of the minor rappers who was murdered.

Just don't dis the rythmn do you know how badly I would want to be Niles Rogers, I guess I should go buy a Strat now.

Arjen

I never said that was a great rap, it was just a real rap I made up many years ago before you were hearing rap on the radio. Actually, rap music goes way back. Back in the 60's there was a popular song called Big Bad John

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR9dDdUmdtU

Now, I think this is Rap music. And it is every bit as good as what you hear today. So the rappers in the 80's were not doing anything new or unknown.

And I agree with you that music does not have to be based on melody or harmony.

But a lot of rap is plain junk. I saw a rap group on the Apollo Live show this weekend. They must have said, "you talkin' out the side of yo neck" about a thousand times. The crowd was going wild for these guys. Pure junk. I think most kids today like rap simply because you are considered cool or "bad" to like rap, not because they truly enjoy the music. Now, I know there are exceptions, I have heard a few rap songs I really enjoy, but not many.

I think what really proves music is if you still hear it on the radio 30 years from now. You can turn on the radio and hear Mozart and Beethoven. You can turn on the radio and hear Beatles songs from 40 years ago. This is because this music has real value.

Most rap songs are popular for about 3 weeks, then you will NEVER hear them again. No musical value whatsoever in my opinion.

So time itself is the test of good music.

At the time I made the post, my neighbours had left their stereo for 12 hours with nothing but rap, so to say I wasn't the most unbiased person would be an understatement. I like stuff where the vocals are rap but the music has more of a rock feel. Kinda like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvtGgbcXX2A
Btw, I'll bet ten bucks that in fifty years we'll be teaching Dr. Dre and Kanye West at conservatories and just like Hendrix and BB King are now 'acceptable' in those places.

Can I get a piece of your action? It's one of those 'time will tell' dealies but I had one of my teachers tell me that the biggest reason the Beatles were so big was because the baby boomers were all teenagers back then meaning 1/4 of the population was in their teens. Of course, what is mainstream and what isn't, is decided by the teenagers. My teacher was in his 60's at the time, so no saying he's young and doesn't understand the world. Also, I think most guitars are in their 50's and 60's. Starting to learn in your 20's is a bad time. Sure you have all those years ahead of you but you're focusing on your career, so you're broke, and your focusing on getting a family, so you're strapped for time. By the time you hit 50 or so the kids are normally out of the house, or in their teens so they can look after themselves and you're usually at a point in your career where you can finance the hobby. So if you start later in life, you are in a better position to play guitar. You take that and couple with the fact that the people in their 50's are also baby boomers and you get that most of the guitar players are in at age group. So while teens control what is mainstream for the rest of the world, the boomers control it for the guitar world.

I could be wrong but it's my perception of the politics of the guitar world, to which I've had a seat in for almost 3 years now. That being said, I don't think the music is timeless. Time washes away everything. I think the reason those bands are big is because most guitarists grew up with the music. No one can say for sure but by the time I'm 50 (assuming I live that long) I can't see myself getting into Hendrix, Clapton, Page and all those other big names. Who knows who will take their place, growing up, bands like Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Alice in Chains and Metallica were big.

For the skimmers: when the fans of the music go, so will the music*

*This post is based on the opinions and perceptions of the individual and should not be taken as fact. No keyboards were harmed in the making of this post.

I do think they're is something to be said to your theory Grunge, music does have a "life cylce" for lack of a better word. While it doesn't apply to all, you do see many bands start off with an "underground/cult" following, to becoming "mainstream/popular", to then being considered "classic" and eventually "outdated" and I do think that has a lot to do with the aging of their audience. Sometimes that hits a little too close to home for us "old" folks to admit. For example, I'm starting to find that I actually know and LIKE the songs they play over the loudspeakers at my local grocery store (although, I'm convinced I just happen to shop at a very hip grocery store :mrgreen: ).

Grunge,

I think your teacher was correct. i was just hearing somewhere recently that radio stations are moving away from what they call Classic rock now (60's and 70's) and playing 80's music as classic rock so I agree with the life cycle thing that philly mentioned.

I think Beatles music gets played for the exact reason your teacher described because a huge percentage of the population grew up with that and that's what they listened too, plus who do you think are running radio stations now..probably a bunch of baby boomers...Do you think when the next generation is running those stations they'll be playing Beatles music...I doubt it. They'll be playing the music they grew up with.

I consider my kids who are late teens early twentys to be fairly open minded about music and they NEVER or RARELY listen to Beatles or classic rock. As a matter of fact they don't like much of it, so if music from that era was so intrinsically better why don't they or most their friends like it? Maybe because there isn't anything special about it.

The Beatles might have been great in their time but their time was 40 years ago.

I think you have a valid point Grunge, but from my personal observation some artists will be timeless (maybe not "timeless", but lasting much longer than their original fans) simply because new fans continue to discover those artists. I am 35 years old, I grew up in a house where my mom and stepfather introduced me to the world of Motown, Jimi Hendrix, Led Zep, Beach Boys, etc. I still love a lot of that music (not so much the Beach Boys, they only lasted one obsessive summer where I pretty much listened to them and '50s rock n' roll). Then as a teen, the "current" artists that I was into (80's hard rock) would mention their influences and I would go and check them out and sometimes find some really good stuff (I remember I bought The Sex Pistols "Never Mind the Bullocks..." without ever hearing a note based on the description on some Rolling Stone's (magazine) list of best albums of all time).

Now, I'm passing down the love of that music, plus the music my generation loved to my sons, who are 16 & 11. I took my son and a friend of his to see Rush last year and it was amazing just how many parent & children groups there were. Now my younger son loves Rush and I'm taking both of them this year. Just about all of my older son's peers listen to new (Dragonforce, etc), 90's (Nirvana, Pearl Jam), 80's (G n' R), 70's (Led Zep) and 60's (Beatles, Jimi), even the ones whose parents don't listen to it.

For the skimmers: even as the original fans go, new fans are popping up.

I think I did harm some parenthesis in the making of this post. While proof-reading, I just realized I used a double parenthesis (a side note with (another side note) inside). I apologize to all punctuation marks for my flagrant abuse.

I never said that was a great rap, it was just a real rap I made up many years ago before you were hearing rap on the radio. Actually, rap music goes way back.

Of course it does. Almost nothing is ever invented whole cloth but is instead an evolution of what went before. One musical style evolves over time from another and there are transitional pieces of music between the two. No different than the evolution of life on the planet Earth.
But a lot of rap is plain junk.

Sturgeon's Law - "90% of everything is crap." Ignore the crap and listen to the rest.
Most rap songs are popular for about 3 weeks, then you will NEVER hear them again. No musical value whatsoever in my opinion.

Not any different than any other genre of music. There's a lot of music from the 60's that you don't hear the oldies stations playing and for a good reason.

Mods were are you...

Abuse of punctuation marks will not be tolerated in this forum.

But jw that's great that you got your sons into that music, I personally think that they are the minority of their age groups in liking those bands though. But there's nothing wrong with that music or any music for that matter but in my opinion there is no good or bad it's whether or like it or not, that's how we really define the music.

I grew up with classic rock but was never a fan of the Beatles or the Stones for that matter so when I hear that the Beatles music was somehow better than the music made today I can't agree with that. To me it's no better or worse it's music, to me 60's pop and if you like that you think it's great and has some enduring qualities but if you don't like you might say it stinks. I don't think the Beatles music stinks but it wouldn't be something I would put on to listen to.

Another reason I like Rap/hip hop is because there are no cover rappers......

I think you have a valid point Grunge, but from my personal observation some artists will be timeless (maybe not "timeless", but lasting much longer than their original fans) simply because new fans continue to discover those artists. I am 35 years old, I grew up in a house where my mom and stepfather introduced me to the world of Motown, Jimi Hendrix, Led Zep, Beach Boys, etc. I still love a lot of that music (not so much the Beach Boys, they only lasted one obsessive summer where I pretty much listened to them and '50s rock n' roll). Then as a teen, the "current" artists that I was into (80's hard rock) would mention their influences and I would go and check them out and sometimes find some really good stuff (I remember I bought The Sex Pistols "Never Mind the Bullocks..." without ever hearing a note based on the description on some Rolling Stone's (magazine) list of best albums of all time).

Now, I'm passing down the love of that music, plus the music my generation loved to my sons, who are 16 & 11. I took my son and a friend of his to see Rush last year and it was amazing just how many parent & children groups there were. Now my younger son loves Rush and I'm taking both of them this year. Just about all of my older son's peers listen to new (Dragonforce, etc), 90's (Nirvana, Pearl Jam), 80's (G n' R), 70's (Led Zep) and 60's (Beatles, Jimi), even the ones whose parents don't listen to it.

For the skimmers: even as the original fans go, new fans are popping up.

I think I did harm some parenthesis in the making of this post. While proof-reading, I just realized I used a double parenthesis (a side note with (another side note) inside). I apologize to all punctuation marks for my flagrant abuse.

I agree new fans are popping up and there are fans of say The Beatles, Zeppelin etc that did not grow up when they were all the rage. From what I've seen, we have new fans, but not enough to replace the ones that go. I think that's why we have the cycle of underground -> mainstream -> classic -> outdated. If we had the fans, MTV or MuchMusic for the Canadians, would play the videos. As much as I hate to admit it, the bands I like, Nirvana etc are headed that way. Too old for mainstream, too new to be classic.

This one has value:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy4FXhkm6Nw
for some reason I like this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiOv37e1a7Q
from what I can tell rap's 'beats" are a lot like rock's riffs.
Yeh, that second video kinda exemplifies my perception of rap :lol:
Could it be any more vile? :shock:

Just when I was reconsidering rap, you come up with that.

If music is food for the soul and
You are what you eat then
I'm excluding rap from my diet.

But, hey, all of you are more qualified than me on this matter.
Just let me lie in my ignorance . . . it's peaceful here . . .
(because there's no rap to put up with). . . no bad rap for me TYVM

Raptfully rapless,
KR2
(Oh, it's been pointed out that we are off topic - I thought the topic was covered (no pun intended)
good excuse to close this out? I vote yea. Rap advocates win. Enjoy the spoils :wink: )