Ok this is actually alittle nit picky and I'm not sure that anyone can really give advice but here is the issue and I'll use a song we are working on as an example but this has come up several times and it's driving me a bit nuts.
Most of you know that I take lessons (because I sux bad) and work out songs with my teacher mostly stuff I play with the "band". I always try to work out whatever part I am going to be playing to be pretty much exactly like the original recording.
The most recent song we are working on is the song Innocent by Fuel. I posted about the effects on it in another post. Well my teacher tabbed out a section of the chorus with a C11 and a Cadd9 chord. When I play along with the record it sounds right on.
But the other guitar player is telling me I'm playing it wrong because he checked internet tab and several videos of the band and he doesn't see anyone playing it that way so I must be wrong. I won't even get into internet tab which is pretty much crap but I did find a tab it had a Cadd9 in it.
But this is going on now with several songs and it's annoying me because I don't get it. I think if it sounds right it is right but I don't know how to handle this. I already pay for lessons and this is part of it I'm not going to go searching the internet and looking at videos to see if it's "right" there's no point. For one internet tab sux and two what we tab out is alwayss from the original recoding any video out there is not a video of what actually got played on the record so to me there's no sense in even looking, sure they may play it the same way but there's a good chance they aren't so then what.
Now my teacher is human and he has made mistakes. He does have a fantastic ear better than anyone I know personally but he's made mistakes and I've caught them usually more with writing out tags or soemthing rather than getting a chord wrong but it happens once in a great while.
So how do I handle this without getting the other guy mad. Somehow I'm afraid that this is going to lead to the inevitable...Why do you take lessons from him he didn't even get the chords for Innocent correct?
"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!
Next time you're going to be playing that song, take the CD or an MP3 along with you. Play it, and play your guitar part over it. Like you say, if it sounds correct then it probably is correct, and there's nothing to argue about!
Agree with you re internet tabs, too....most of them are pretty poor, no more than a useful starting point. Some songs that I've learned - and sweated over! - sound pretty much spot on when I play along with the CD, yet they're nothing like the internet tabs I've found for them, most sites have the same tab posted by the same person. "Dirty World" and "A Touch Of Grey" spring to mind.....
:D :D :D
Vic
"Sometimes the beauty of music can help us all find strength to deal with all the curves life can throw us." (D. Hodge.)
This isn't "nitpicky" at all.
...the other guitar player is telling me I'm playing it wrong because he checked internet tab and several videos of the band and he doesn't see anyone playing it that way so I must be wrong.
Point one:
...internet tab... is pretty much crap...
Exactly.
Point two: Videos are not now and have never been true representations of what goes into a recording.
Point three: Some people hear with their eyes, not their ears, and the other guitar in your band player sounds like a good example. Do yout set EQ or pickup height visually? Do you tune your guitars visually? Music just doesn't work that way. If the ear says you're right, you're right.
(I won't even get into the pros and cons of doing a song "just like the record.")
But this is going on now with several songs and it's annoying me because I don't get it. I think if it sounds right it is right but I don't know how to handle this. I already pay for lessons and this is part of it I'm not going to go searching the internet and looking at videos to see if it's "right" there's no point....
Right. So...
Somehow I'm afraid that this is going to lead to the inevitable...Why do you take lessons from him he didn't even get the chords for Innocent correct?
...why do you assume your teacher is wrong? What is your definition of "correct?" Clearly you hear with your ears, not your eyes, and your ears tell you your teacher is correct on this one.
This will sound harsh, & it probably won't be a popular answer... but I'd say trust your ears and your teacher, and maybe look for another band.
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whipped cream." - Frank Zappa
Vic +1 to everything you wrote just because the same lousy version shows up in a million sites doesn't mean it's right and I've found that out almost with every tab I look at. Heck most are done by teenagers who don't have a clue and I'd take my chances with my instructor anyday over internet tab.
Crow +2 - I detected a bit of apprehension about the "play like the recording" part. In alot of songs this is next to impossible when they have like 5 guitars overdubbed etc but for the most part we try to keep it as close as possible, we may extend the solo's or endings but we try and make sure the signature riffs are there. I never assume my teacher is wrong I usually assume he's right until I hear something different and by hear I mean in the song not what someone tells me. But he emailed me this "So all the internet tab and videos are wrong and your teacher is right?" Now I never said anything about this int he first place I never said I was right or wrong I just played the song the way it was tabbed and to me it sounded correct.
Vic I already have played along to the record and I know my ears aren't that great and I couldn't tell you by listening if it was a C#11 or a Cadd9 chord but I can tell if something is off when I am playing them and they sound OK to me.
It's funny but Noteboat had posted something very similar a week or so ago about a song he tabbed out for a student who ended up quitting because he said he saw a video and the guitar player wasn't playing it the same way. Maybe he'll read this as I'm sure he's run into this before.
"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!
I've learned songs from bought and paid for TABs (professional transcriptionists) and then saw the artist play the song and his hands are in the wrong place. :? Different chord voicings, different positions but ultimately the same notes and it sounds the same. In a nut shell, if it sounds right then it is.
"Work hard, rock hard, eat hard, sleep hard,
grow big, wear glasses if you need 'em."
-- The Webb Wilder Credo --
TR exactly but the whole thing about "official" music whether it be sheet music or tab kind of makes me wonder.
Who's doing these tabs? Not the artists? It's just some guy hired to write tab out...does that make it anymore correct than anything else?
Sure you would expect it to be better but I've found alot of tab/sheet music that had incredibly convoluted crazy voicings that I can't beleive anyone is actually playing. I always seems to me that they always want to make the music more complicated than what is actually being played. Maybe they get paid by the notes they trnscribe.
But my teacher does that on the side for publishers like Hal Leonard so what does that mean he's always right cuz it's in a Hal Leonard book?
I'm with you if it sounds right it's OK.
"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!
But he emailed me this "So all the internet tab and videos are wrong and your teacher is right?"
Uh yeah probably.
You may have seen my post about doing an "arrangement" of David Essex's Rock On.
Here is a sample of the score: http://www.sheetmusicdirect.us/ecom/sellableGoodView.do?fit2w=1&itemId=1000048483
Here is the original recorded version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aK6jgzV32bg
Here is Def Leppard's cover: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXJU64esj6M&feature=related
Here is an internet tab someone did (this does not sound OK):
Rock On – David Essex
Capo 2
Verse
A F# E F# E F#
Hey did ya Rock and Roll, Rock on, Ohh my soul
A F# E F# E F#
Hey did ya Boogie too, Did ya?
A F# E F# E F#
Hey Shout summertime blues, jump up and down in the blue suede shoes
A F# E F# E F#
Hey did ya Rock and Roll, Rock On
Chorus
E F#
And where do we go from here?
E F#
Which is the way that's clear? Still looking for that...
Verse
A F# E F#
Blue jean, Baby queen,
E F#
Prettiest girl I've ever seen
A F# E F#
See her shake on the movie screen,
E F#
Jimmy Dean (JAMES DEAN!)
Bridge
E-----5----2----2---2--------------2--2----5---2-------2--2------2----|
B------------5---------5-5-5-2--5------------------5---------5--------|
G---------------------------------------------------------------------|
D---------------------------------------------------------------------|
A---------------------------------------------------------------------|
E---------------------------------------------------------------------|
Chorus
E F#
And where do we go from here?
E F#
Which is the way that's clear? Still looking for that...
Verse
A F# E F#
Blue jean, Baby queen,
E F#
Prettiest girl I've ever seen
A F# E F#
See her shake on the movie screen,
E F#
Jimmy Dean (JAMES DEAN!)
E F#
Rock On (fade)
Whatever he's taking, I want some of it.
Let your bandmate decide if the internet tab is better than the original or a professional cover.
It is difficult to answer when one does not understand the question.
So, what is he wanting to play at that point? Unless it clashes, why does he care what you're playing? He sounds a bit anal to me.
Sounds to me like your bandmate does not like to be proved wrong. I know its an uncomfortable thing and you have already stated that you did not want to make waves about this but I think there is no other way around it. I'm not suggesting that you start a fight over this, that would be senseless. But I would suggest that you try to make your case is some manner.
Maybe you should at least agree that the general consesnsus is that tabs found on nthe internet are not 100% reliable. That should be a good starting place.
You have been playing for quite some time now. I have to believe that you have developed some sort of an ear. Based on what I've read in your posts, I would lean towards trusting your own ear and what you think is correct.
Teamwork- A few harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction.
Band politics -- much, much harder than music.
If you have to perform each song "just like the video" as well as "just like the record," maybe you should ask the other guitar player if your hair is right for the song (taking the thing to its logical extreme). In other words, I would try to defuse the situation with humor. Even a bad joke can make a good point.
If humor didn't work, I would probably ask why any of this matters if the notes are right -- and I would keep asking until I got a sensible answer, or until he figured out that it doesn't make any difference, unless you're a Fuel "tribute band," which doesn't sound like the case.
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whipped cream." - Frank Zappa
jw - That's was exactly my point, what do I care what you are playing as long as it works and sounds good. He told me that when we play a new song we should check mulitple sources to see if we are playing it correctly and if he is playing it wrong I should tell him etc., but I am not doing that. My answer to that was I didn't need to do that I expected the other guys to learn there parts on their own plus I told him I work all these out with my instructor why would then go second guessing him and checking internet tab and videos to see if they are correct, if that's the case I might as well just quit the lessons and use internet tab. Anal is exactly how I would describe it but I think it's even more than that although I can't put my finger on it. It's liek there is some jealousy about me taking lessons or this subconcious thing that he's better than me and he's not taking lessons and it's some kind of dig. I'm not sure what it is cuz it's starting to get to me a bit. He is better than me he's been playing since he was a teenager more than 30 years so he has one up on me but other than playing some fast solo's I can play everything he plays.
crow - the politics is getting ridiculous and we aren't even playing out the whole thing is starting to turn me off.
blue - I've been at it about 6 years or so and my ear has definitely developed. I may not be able to pull an A out of thin air but I can tell fairly easily while we are playing if something sounds off and when I play what I have written out for the song it sounds right on.
"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!
I agree with several things that have already been said. Internet tabs are frequently wrong, but can be used as a starting point. There's more than one way to play a song "correctly." If it sounds right, it is right. What you hear on a recording has been edited and may not even be possible to play live.
This seems to be more about personalities than music. Even if you're not playing out, playing with other people is like a job. You have to decide how much you're willing to give in to this person just to keep peace, whether he is going to walk all over you in the future if you give in to doing things his way now, how much you care about things sounding right to you, and whether it's worth the politics to stick with this band.
Renee
Well I'm not going to let this get out of hand nor am I going to necessarily just change because he thinks I should change. There sure is a lot more that goes into this band stuff than just the music and I guess if anything you have to admire bands that have been able to stay together for years, it's work and it's work that has nothing to do with music but yet so important in the whole scheme of things.
I'm not going anywhere literally and figuratively so I'm not going to burn any bridges over this I'm more apt to just go along with what he says and then just play what I've already been playing he'd never the know difference unless he was watching my fingers. As band we have many more things to work on besides whether or not one of us is plying this the way it is in some video.
I appeased him and told him I'd run it by my teacher which I feel a little embarassed even asking him it's kind of a slap in the face to him..not even sure how to broach the subject other than just telling him.."The other guitar player said you tabbed out the wrong chords because he checked internet tab and saw a Youtube video and they didn't played it that way"
I wonder what the people that actually teach guitar would think if someone came in and said that?
"It's all about stickin it to the man!"
It's a long way to the top if you want to rock n roll!
I appeased him and told him I'd run it by my teacher which I feel a little embarassed even asking him it's kind of a slap in the face to him..not even sure how to broach the subject other than just telling him.."The other guitar player said you tabbed out the wrong chords because he checked internet tab and saw a Youtube video and they didn't played it that way"
I wonder what the people that actually teach guitar would think if someone came in and said that?
They would probably think the "other guitar" player was an idiot :D
Maybe you should turn your back to him while you guys play. See if he can even tell what you are playing. Play what he wants a couple of times and what you know is right a couple of times and see if he even notices.
Ehhhh....Play what you want...get right in his face and then stick your tongue at him. :lol: (just kidding man)
Teamwork- A few harmless flakes working together can unleash an avalanche of destruction.
