Rethinking my time here.

I really disagree about the "pc" culture of the "Hear Here" forum. Rough criticism in that forum really helped my playing a lot. When I posted my first cover of Layla, man, I got torn into. You can still see the thread there actually, and it helped a lot.

There are a few posts where people just go "great job", and when I listen I hear out of key playing, and stuff that can be improved on, but I always speak up, let the poster know what I hear, and they can take or leave my advice. One member who was really good at this, at being totally honest, was Hueseph, but he doesn't come around as much anymore, unfortunetly.

The reason you don't see posts that go "I don't like it" is because posts like that serve no purpose; what does that do for the composder? Much in the same way the thread about artists that "I don't like" could serve no purpose, other than to offend people who feel invested someway in these musicians.

I agree - if you want to talk about which bands suck, GN is not the right forum, as someone else said, there are plenty of other forums like that. Honestly, I participate in a few other forums, and I find extremly bad attitude from the posters, it seems after a while they end up lacking basic human communication skills, instead of the welcoming friendly attitude you find at Guitarnoise.

The moderators know what they are doing, that thread WAS getting ugly. From the first post really, I said to myself "this one won't last" and after a while here you can just tell. Someone will make a comment about a band that isn't based off fact, someone will defend said band and it will progress.

edit: Margaret - jinx.

I disagree with this, Cnev. What I see on Hear Here is that relationships develop over time, where people feel increasingly "safe" in giving constructive criticism, based on how that criticism is received by the original poster. Most of those doing the critiquing on Hear Here (and the two songwriting forums, as well) respond with a sensitivity to how much criticism the poster can take without being unduly hurt or offended. If gentle criticism is well-received and appreciated, the critics can get a little more specific and raise the bar a little when subsequent clips are posted. If the poster takes offense at even the gentlest criticism, they surely shouldn't expect people to spend time crafting well-thought out, honest critiques in the future.

Also, from what I've seen, beginners who post at Hear Here will tend to be dealt with more gently than those who have a depth and range of skills, and that is as it should be, IMO. We beginners need more encouragement and advice on different aspects than those who've been playing forever.

That's what I've been thinking about. Ofcourse you're not going to be all fussy about someone's production quality if he/she just got the first mic at walmart or go on and on about dynamics when someone is happy to post the first succesfull chord change or something. But I know from myself that at times I'm holding in because I'm just not sure: I *guess* they wouldn't mind but I'd rather not take the chance to hurt someone with comments meant constructively.

It's why I've been looking at the SoundClick structure: in their critics subforum (same as our hear here) reviewers have their own review topic (often very long ones at that) where they explain how they review. People can then drop links there and get a review back. This way people who do not want a really tough look at their songs can post like we normally do here and those who would like someone to take apart their work and give cold but sincere and hopefully helpfull comments can drop the link in the special 'butcher my song here' topic.

The kindness showed here is really unique, and it's a great thing that that encourages people to step up and show how they're doing. Keeping that atmosphere intact is most important as it's what GN is all about. But a system like they have at SC could be a nice addition.

Maragret,

First let me explain something. I'm not trying to be a martyr or anything I just mentioned it seemed like I am in the minority in my view point. Maybe my choice of words wasn't right, anyway it seems that's the way it is.

Please remember I have NEVER personally made a negative comment about anyone's playing (I'm not that insensitive) but I do feel that there are only a few people who dare to be upfront with people. All of the other comments are usually, something along the lines of "That sounds good, Nice job, way to go" when in fact it really wasn't that good. So why tell them it's good if it isn't how does that help? putting a positive spin on everything doesn't make it better, this isn't a Mary Poppins movie.

If someone posts a clip of their playing and it's out of key with bad timing I see absolutely no reason to tell them it sounded good or some none threatening comment like " Keep working on it, it's not bad".

I've played sports all my life and I never ever had a coach that would tell me I was doing a good job when I wasn't and I am the type of person that is motivated when people tell me I sux rather than showering me with insincere BS. Even my guitar teacher doesn't do that although he's not as critical since I'm paying him. Ha !

To me the best thing for everyone involved is to give accurate sincere comments about a persons playing even if they are critical.

I just don't see it happening here that often that's all.

One thing I find intersting is your comment about building relationships etc. Maybe it's just me and my friends but the colser I am with my friends the easier it is to flat out tell them they sux at something and we don't mince words or sugar coat it. If we are playing golf or music or whatever the harshest critics are always the people I'm closest to. we are brutally honest with each other and to me that's motivation to improve.

Taso,

Posts like "I don't like it" are just subjective opinions and I agree that doesn't serve a purpose but if the playing is out of time and off key saying is it's bad is what's needed(because that IS the truth). Of course it would be nice to expnad on what's not good about it but letting them think it's OK is a disservice to them and serves no purpose.

Everyone is different has different motivations etc., I personally have no desire to post my playing (maybe if it was an original song) of me playing because I feel it serves absolutely no purpose. I kno wif I'm playing a piece correctly or not it's pretty obvious. Why would I post it? To have my ego stroked by people telling me that was good, I already know it. Or if it's not played correctly I know that too I don't need someone else to tell me that. (Now in my example I'm talking about playing a cover song where you can gauge yourself against the original)

The only time I can see a reason to do that is if I wanted a comment on the tone of my playing not the playing itself. If I can't tell if I'm playing a piece correctly then I have bigger issue to address.

Twisted,

I would have thought that's why there's a forum called Opinions and Polls so you could express your OWN opinion.

Yes they do a good job, just a little to sanitized sometimes.

So we are not allowed to say that either?

Things in O&P are a lot less moderated than anywhere else on this site, to be honest. Trust me, nothing gets locked down, sent to Electric Laydland or deleted, and nobody gets banned (unless they're spamming us with inappropriate stuff) without some very serious discussion. We do get a feel for things that are heading in the wrong direction, and we screw up sometimes; it goes with the territory.

Alan,

I understand and I agree that the mods do a great job. I never really meant to cause a commotion. I just stated an opinion that things sometimes seem a bit sanitized in certain forums.

I didn't even see the comments that got the particular post in question removed so it's impossible to comment on that. I would assume it was because personal attacks were being made. Taht absolutely doesn't belong in any of the forums.

Cnev - I agree with you to an extent. I've given a few of those "good job" comments, but really, it's because the person has done a great job, I have nothing else to say, whether because I'm not experienced enough, or because the song they wrote is just awesome. "stroking the ego" as you can say, is a good reason for posting songs to the Hear Here. It gives songwriters confidence that what they are doing sounds good. The confidence gives them the ability to write more songs, the listener gets to hear some new music. It's a win win.

For covers, it's sort of a "look at what I did" - people are proud of their work, they want to share it with others. I don't see anything wrong with that. And also, there are elements of recording, as well as guitar playing, that new players don't have the ears to hear yet. For example, a bunch of the first covers I posted were ridiculously out of time - I had no idea, I didn't know what I was doing. GN listened to it, told me what was wrong with it, I fixed it, and learned a lot.

Taso, ( I can't call you Kramer anymore cuz Kramer is always brutally honest..Ha)

I don't have a problem with people posting anything, covers or their own material. I don't see a need to post covers personally.

Original music is a little differnt because here there is much more subjectivity. I might not like the music or lyrics personally but that doesn't mean that any of it was bad it's just I didn't like it. So sometimes the two can get mixed up.

Now covers are different there is something to gauge it against. I can tell right away if your timing is off or your playing in the wrong key or something. In this case I absolutely see no point in not telling the person it wasn't good...because guess what..it wasn't. I think this is the crux of my argument/statement. It's a much more black and white than original music and therefore much easier to compare it to something.

Like I told Maragret I don't think I ever posted a negative comment or told someone that something wasn't good and believe me I have heard stuff that wasn't good so I'm alittle guilty of this myself I just don't think in the long run it is going to help that person. Is everyone's ego so fragile now that no matter what they post/play we are always supposed to say it's good or OK?

Please remember I have NEVER personally made a negative comment about anyone's playing (I'm not that insensitive)
To clarify, I didn't say that negative comments in and of themselves are insensitive. To the contrary, negative comments can be very valuable and can be made with great sensitivity and care and encouragement, as I have seen demonstrated in Hear Here and the songwriting forums.

but I do feel that there are only a few people who dare to be upfront with people. All of the other comments are usually, something along the lines of "That sounds good, Nice job, way to go" when in fact it really wasn't that good. So why tell them it's good if it isn't how does that help? putting a positive spin on everything doesn't make it better, this isn't a Mary Poppins movie.
In my own case, I don't often feel qualified to make too specific of critical comments, but I usually do want the person to know I took the time to listen to their posting and that I admire their ability to "put themselves out there" which is something I don't have much guts to do myself. IMO, if you listen to something and think it's just awful, but you don't want to take the time to craft a statement of specific suggestions, then it's best to say nothing.

However, if you can constructively state what might make it better (in your eyes) then you should do that, always being certain to state it as an OPINION, not an incontestable statement of the worth of the project or the poster. ex: "This piece requires some definite speed and proficiency with hammer-ons and pull-offs. Maybe it is a little advanced for your skills at this point. A song that helped me develop those skills was blah blah blah" or "Are you certain you are in the correct key? I think the backing track is in the key of D, and I think you're playing in something else," versus "That totally sucks, dude." or "You are a terrible guitarist with no sense of timing." At the risk of stating the obvious, it's a matter of applying social skills.
If someone posts a clip of their playing and it's out of key with bad timing I see absolutely no reason to tell them it sounded good or some none threatening comment like " Keep working on it, it's not bad".
It sounds to me like you are interpreting critique as an either/or proposition--a black or white thing, no in between. What is wrong with combining those comments into an honest critique that encourages? ex: "I think your timing, especially from Point A to Point B needs some work. Sounds like you're behind the beat. And the guitar's tuning sounds like it's off. But I hear some improvements, esp in your chord changes. Keep it up!"

To me the best thing for everyone involved is to give accurate sincere comments about a persons playing even if they are critical.
On this we agree.
I just don't see it happening here that often that's all.
I do see it, but it is between particular parties who have built a relationship in which they feel safe giving an honest opinion even when it is negative. Those relationships take time and effort to develop.
One thing I find intersting is your comment about building relationships etc. Maybe it's just me and my friends but the colser I am with my friends the easier it is to flat out tell them they sux at something and we don't mince words or sugar coat it. If we are playing golf or music or whatever the harshest critics are always the people I'm closest to. we are brutally honest with each other and to me that's motivation to improve.
This illustrates perfectly how the criticism meted out and the way it is received is directly related to the relationship.

Apologies, Scott for hijacking your thread. :oops:

Margaret

So maybe I'll just take a leave of absence for a bit until I can actually play again.
I just want to say, Scott, that I'm glad you opted for a "leave of absence" rather than a permanent "leave"! Occasionally things get a little out of hand here, but for the most part we are exactly what brought you here in the first place! I'm glad you'll be back! :D

Margaret,

Well I think we've discussed this enough in the end we'll all go on doing what we have all been doing. we have a little difference of opinion ( no that much though) on how to communicate that.

I like to just get to the point, if soemone's timing is off just saying Hey that timing is way off should be enough, I shouldn't have to temper that with some other words/explanation to soften the blow, it is what is is and yes it is black and what, your either in time or your not.

But I promise never to say a discouraging word in this forum.

And God forbid if I ever post some of my playing oh boy will I ever be ready for the comments!

Chris

One more thought and then you can tell me to shut up....

Like I said, I think some GN members may go to Hear Here and listen to a few songs and want to post something to let the posters know they've been there, so they say "Nice work" or "Good job" even though they don't have the expertise or the confidence or the relationships or the time to post something more detailed.

But I think listeners at Hear Here tend to get serious about spending the time and effort to critique others' work posted there around the same point when THEY THEMSELVES begin to post clips and want to have them honestly critiqued.

If we are unhappy with the lack of honest, detailed critiques, maybe we should think about this bumper sticker maxim:
"If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem."

Margaret

That's probably pretty true Margaret - something Barnabus mentioned a while back, it's the old "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" principle. There are some people who never comment on other peoples recordings - just post their own and expect feedback every time. A good way to approach critiquing is to ask yourself "What would I say if I heard this on the radio?" but to keep in mind that NONE of the people on here are professionals. Most of us are struggling to get to grips with the guitar. There's a lot of hard work goes into some of these songs, and if someone posts them for you to listen, they genuinely want to know what you think, good or bad.

It's the same with the SSG, athough I approach that from a slightly different angle. Bare lyrics are tougher to critique; so I ask myself, would I like this if I'd written it? Is there anything that doesn't work? What would I change? Again, there's almost an element of family in there - we're all after the same thing, writing a good song, and the advice given in there is usually pretty good. After a while, you do come to terms with the way other people write songs, and develop a kind of feeling what someone's looking for in a song. I've been given a LOT of advice in there, and I'm grateful for it - people do tend to think about what they're reading, and give an honest judgement.

:D :D :D

Vic

Vic,

Not sure if I get your point, This I scratch your back you scratch mine means what? That I'll tell you your stuff is good if you tell me my stuff is good.

Let's understand I realize there are no professionals, that doesn't change the fact if something is played correctly or in the right key. There's alot of hard work in doing/posting the recordings. Absolutely 100% agree. That's part of the reason i don't do them I don't have the time/energy, but that should never be a criteria unless someone specifically asked how is my mixing or sound levels, otherwise the comments I'm talking about have to do with the performance of a piece and that's it.

Again lyrics are a little different, there it's not so much about critiquing because there are no right or wrong lyrics it's more a matter of suggesting alternate lyrics.

But if you play a cover of say Maggie May, it's much more black or aht to tell you whether it was good or bad. if your timing is off and your hitting bad notes..it's not good. If you play it 90% correctly then OK it's pretty good and here' s what you did wrong.

Singing is a little more subjective also, I have very particular tastes in what I consider a good singer but they are more subjective so for me to tell someone that wasn't good is a bit harder. Now if your singing off key and notes are flat and such then again it ain't good and there's no need to some how put a positve spin on it.

This is for Taso,

Remember the episode about George's girlfriend that had this huge nose and no one had the heart to tell her, and they were sitting in Jerry's apartment and Kramer says to her " Your as pretty as any girl you just need a nose job" That's being honest and telling it like it is. Was that cruel or mean? I don't think so he was right she had a big nose. And because of that she got a nose job and she was beautiful, yet everyone else was to scared for fear of hurting her feelings so they never said anything. That's the point I'm trying to make. There's no reason to sugarcoat reality if it smells like a fish and looks like a fish it is a fish.

But if you play a cover of say Maggie May, it's much more black or aht to tell you whether it was good or bad. if your timing is off and your hitting bad notes..it's not good. If you play it 90% correctly then OK it's pretty good and here' s what you did wrong.
Probably for an experience player but not for a beginner. Sometimes I don't know if I make the things right or bad, and I don't say if it is the correct note because I'm reading the partiture and seeing my fingers. For example, I learnt the concept of dynamics reading some comments for other people and a lot of things with my own post.

I think Vic says it is a job to listen the stuff sent by others for detecting troubles or whatever and write down the comments. When you put a new song, you like to receive comments, so you "should" also give your comments. I mean: Quid pro quo. It is similar to the Meet and Greet forum. When I said my first hello I liked very much to receive a simple note saying hello too.

Cnev

I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine ..

If I was to post a song in say ...Hear here for instance and expected feed back for it , but never ever offered any feed back to anyone elses work ..
Do you really think I am going to much feed back ? Of course not ..

The regualars over there in here are terrific but like anyone on any forum give and thy shall recieve 10 fold ...

What you offer is what you get back