I HATE Jimmy Page!

Yeah, I think back in the 70s they called that being a heroin addict. :roll:

There are a number stories about Page's dubious contibutions to other artists' studio work. In particular, the Kinks were not too pleased with Page's work and claim to have minimized his part in the final mix. Jimmy claims otherwise.

OTOH, he def did great studio work for LZ.

Good times, bad times, you know he's had his share ...

for me i think his "less than perfect" technique is what i love about him.

It humanises him.

Besides, he didn't need to be perfect, He had Bonzo on the drums holding it all together. I think the whole LZ thiing was about pushing back boundaries and exploring the music imaginatively. The studio recordings were fantastic, but watching the live stuff, you really see some out there ideas coming forth. I hate to be one to reference miles davis twice in two days, but they kinda had a similar attitude towards the playing of theres no one way to play anything. As long as everybody is listening actively to one another, and trying to follow, whatever happens is gonna be good. they were really listening to each other on those tunes. The actual song was just the frame, the performances were painting the pictures.

There sure aren't many of the blues players I admire (and who apparently Mr. Page did, too) who can be called "technically good players."

On Page's sloppiness- Stevie Ray Vaughan is probably the best soulful and technical guitarist of all time if you want to look at it like that, but does that make him any better than Jimmy Page because of technical ability? I don't think so. While Jimmy Page was sloppy, he was a monster riff creator and could play across any genre, much like Jeff Beck or Jimi Hendrix could. SRV is probably my second favorite guitarist of all time, but I'm just being unbiased here.

While I say that I honestly don't think it's an excuse for people to say "Page was sloppy live because he was always drunk or on drugs". So what? So were a lot of great guitarists and they played just as well when in that condition. And I'm talking pre-heroin which is on a different level (which is 1977 I think).

Anyways Vic I messaged you about Kashmir. :)

But what those old blues players did have -- as well as did/does Page -- is a good sense of timing. Muffing a note in time often sounds much better than playing a pristine note with bad timing.

no such thing as awrong note anyway.
Once is wrong, twice is jazz

Perfectly said...

C

Not sure how this fits in to the JP discussion and I cant take credit for this (wish I could)

"Jazz is not dead, it just smells funny"...Frank Zappa.

While Page sure could be sloppy live (in an old interview Plant said that's one of the things about Page he missed most from the Zep days), I think "loose" is a better way to describe his studio work. Personally I find that many guitarists in that style tend to sound rigid in their backing and very few have this ability to stay in the pocket while still playing 'loose',- Townsend, Page, and (gulp) Van Halen are the ones that comes to mind.. (and Jimi of course)

Page's talent for orchestrating his guitars and coming up with a wide variety of guitar sounds that fit the song perfectly is almost unrivaled in rock. So yeah, I like him! 8)

people that call great guitarist sloppy wish they were listening to bach play the harpsichord. the bends, slides, grooving rhythms, that's what it's all about. i can only think of one studio lz song where you can actually hear page muff a note, and that's the break in heartbreaker.
same deal with hendrix. his studio work was pretty close to immaculate, and he was pushing the envelope a lot farther,

as for the drug thing, i'd say van halen was generally a lot sloppier live than zep, and evh recently admitted that he never played a gig sober until very recently... but they don't get that same rep.

people that call great guitarist sloppy wish they were listening to bach play the harpsichord. the bends, slides, grooving rhythms, that's what it's all about. i can only think of one studio lz song where you can actually hear page muff a note, and that's the break in heartbreaker.
same deal with hendrix. his studio work was pretty close to immaculate, and he was pushing the envelope a lot farther,

Ah no -- you seemed to have missed this: We are talking about his issues during live perfomance. The released studio work does indeed sound very good. It's also known to have undergone very heavy editing under the perfectist scrutiny of Page -- not necessarily for mistakes, but often to create better compositions. And these pieced-together parts and solos then became the songs we know on record and later live. Unfortunately, Page was for some reason, not always able to match the studio performance on stage. Not surprising for him (or others in similar situations).

Complaints by other artists about Page's studio work, generally led to removing him from the mix. We don't know really what happened as that's a word-against-word situation about some of Page's work during a tumultuous time. Could be true; could be eggagerated.

These days, he seems on top of his game. Nice to have him that way.

lot of different opinions flying around here. i was just responding to criticism of his studio work.

Yeah -- there will always be lots of opinions from "god" to "emotionless droid" for many guitarists. So what?. We like varied and different aspects of the many players that grace the cover of GP, TG, GT, AG, F and deadliestofallfreakingoldnumetal mags*. Not really a problem. Everyone should know what they value, and face the fact that they are going get few converts to their PoV on awesomedudeplayer among those who already know the works of awesomedudeplayer and don't care for it. Better to introduce those unfamiliar with awesomedudeplayer and see if they catch some of the enthusiasm. YouTube has been a great tool for this.

* FWIW: These discussions are usually more about us than the titular guitarist. (This one was about Vic more than Pagey.) And that's cool. I don't mind getting to know the tastes of GN members, helps me understand them. But I really want to see more than "Page is a g***d**n sloppy guitar player who shouldn't be allowed to touch a LP." It's more interesting to read about something Page did or didn't do on a particular tune that cinched it for a fan or repelled a foe. How about a little thoughtful analysis (this is self directed as well) instead of the typical, rehashed "Jimi was sloppy, but innovative"; "Jimmy was sloppy, but innovative"; "Cream so rocked, but these days Eric is just safe and boring"; "YM has emotion, can't you hear it dripping from the scallops of his fretboard?"; "Santana is slow and only knows pentatonic scales"; "Lifeson is the best"; "Ric's Johnson can't go the distance"; "YM is a robot"; "JB writes crappy songs and can't hold a candle to Jennifer Batten"; "Django is untouchable"; "Cobain plays better now than he ever did - but wouldn't touch him either" ... Or at least give us a list of your love it/hated it guitar players with a one or two words description of why, so we can infer what you probably value (or can/can't perceive in music).... and maybe also decide whether or not to continue reading your posts these topics. :wink:

Oh yeah: same for guitars.