Selling an iPod with songs: Is it legal?

About a buck on average. Some more, some less.

But record contracts are screwy things - as is the accounting behind them. Most bands don't see a dime of royalty money from albums, because first the royalties go to cover the recording costs, and then to cover whatever advance they got.

So...

500,000 copies sold x say .85 royalty = 425,000

Recording costs: ($300,000)
Advance: ($100,000)

Net royalty due the artist: $25,000

And that's for a monster hit.

One other thing I would like to add..All of you know as well as I do that the bulk of the money goes to the record exectutives with no talent and make money off of the skills of these musicians. These guys have been getting rich from musicians for decades...preying on new talent and taking advantage of the them. It truth, the bulk of the money should go to the MUSICIANS themselves and let the exectutives live on the royalties!

Sorry I just had to rant... :x

They used to be referred to as ten per-centers, but its more like 90 percent :evil:

Mike, great post.

You don't OWN the music you buy. You own the media that the music is printed on (tape, CD). Don't ever forget that. Just because you own the "Sammy Hagar unboxed" greatest hits album on CD, it doesn't mean you own "Swept Away" (Killer tune, by the way). You only own the media. You can make copies of the song for PERSONAL use, but if your CD gets all scratched up you are done - because you only own the media, not the song. If you owned a limited right to the song you could get a replacement for your scratched CD, but you don't.

I agree - if you sold the CDs with the Ipod it would be cool, but just the loaded Ipod would be illegal.

Mike,

It used to be illegal for teachers to copy anything for classes - in the 60s a bunch of teachers were sued for infringement. But when they revamped the copyright law (I forget which revision... 1973 or so I think) Congress considered teachers, and set guidelines for how much could be copied. It's in the footnotes of the copyright law...

You basically can't photocopy a textbook, but you can do handouts from newspapers and magazines and whatnot.

http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2006/02/13/riaa_ipod_warning/
Wipe your iPod before selling it, RIAA warns
By Tony Smith
13th February 2006 11:52 GMT

If you sell your iPod and don't remove your music first, you could find yourself with the Recording Industry donkey. of America (RIAA) breathing down your back. The organisation last week told sellers in the US that doing so is a clear violation of copyright law and warned them that it's sniffing out for infringers.

Apple's rapid iPod refresh schedule, not to mention those of its competitors, have generated a tide of old music player offers in classified ads columns and on sites like eBay. Rather too many sellers are shipping their old machines with music libraries intact - some we've seen even make a virtue of the fact.

But it's illegal, not only in the US but also in the UK and the rest of Europe. As, incidentally, is ripping all your CDs and LPs to MP3 then selling or even giving away the originals. By disposing of your physical media, you're ending your right to use the music they contain. The RIAA's point, made in an MTV online report is that handing over music on a music player is no different from duplicating a CD and selling the copy.

I forgot to say thanks to slejhamer for this information! Sorry! :oops: :oops:

I have to admit, the argument that selling the loaded IPOD is illegal is counter-intuitive though it may be correct. By logical extension, the argument that condemns selling the loaded IPOD would seem to make it illegal to sell your CDs too. You'd think all those used CD places would be guilty of copyright infringement as well.

Nevertheless, if you can erase the music, I suppose you should.

Interesting discussion.

I think the point is if you sell the CD, you no longer have a copy of the music, though I myself have also wondered about 2nd hand shops, how much of their sell-on goes back to the artist or record label?

Funny, but I was just reading Q238 and it has the same question and answer about Ipods

Ofcourse this is illegal, and deservedly so. If it wasn't, what was stopping me from byuing a bunch of Ipods, dumping my song database on it and selling them for a profit? You are increasing your profits by earning money over the back of the artist which we supposedly support. That's bad.

On a sidenote: If it weren't for the managers noone would be playing in stadiums. The ability to get tens of thousands of people together in a coordinated manner is not something your average musician is able to arrange. Or to put it like this: if the business-side of music can increase sales ten times, then why should they not get the bulk of the money? Or to use Tom's example: would the artist have made 25.000 on that song if there wouldn't have been a label backing them? Probably not.

Ofcourse this is illegal, and deservedly so. If it wasn't, what was stopping me from byuing a bunch of Ipods, dumping my song database on it and selling them for a profit? You are increasing your profits by earning money over the back of the artist which we supposedly support. That's bad.

On a sidenote: If it weren't for the managers noone would be playing in stadiums. The ability to get tens of thousands of people together in a coordinated manner is not something your average musician is able to arrange. Or to put it like this: if the business-side of music can increase sales ten times, then why should they not get the bulk of the money? Or to use Tom's example: would the artist have made 25.000 on that song if there wouldn't have been a label backing them? Probably not.

Arjen, what I wrote was if I sold the iPod at NO MOre than the retail price of the iPod...NO PROFIT to be made...

As for stadium concerts being a COORDINATED manner...I worked security and MANY concerts both outdoor and indoor...It really is a free for all. If the crowd decides to be unruley there is nothing you can do about it. It all depends on the mood of the crowd. These executives are WAY overpaid...why should they make more than the artists themselves. Without the artists these exec's would be flipping burgers!

When you buy copyrighted material, you buy a licence to use that material, not the material itself.
How about if I sell a car and advertise that it has a full tank of gas from Sunoco
Petrol, food, etc are all consumables - when they're used, they're gone, there's nothing left, so you actually buy that item.
The comparison is closer to owning the car. You buy the car, but not the right to use it. You pay, separately, for a licence (the registration, tag or whatever you call it) to use the vehicle. Don't keep the registration current, you still have the car, but no right to use it. Sell the car and you sell the vehicle, but no right to use it.

imo selling an ipod full of "purchased" music should be considered the same as selling a multiple cd player full of "purchased" cds.

remember this thread?
http://forums.guitarnoise.com/viewtopic.php?t=22163&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

Yes, it's illegal, but so is shooting someone, and people still get away with that!

What if I sold my CDs and kept all the songs on my ipod? :?
Still illegal for all the reasons already posted, though it would be tricky to find out or prove
Arjen, what I wrote was if I sold the iPod at NO MOre than the retail price of the iPod...NO PROFIT to be made...

What if I copied all my CDs on to dvds and sold the dvds for no more than the retail price? Still ok do you think?
What if I stole your car and gave it to some one? No profit for me so no problem?

As stated many times, you at no point own the rights to distribute the songs, the versions on your ipod are non-transferable!

What if I sold my CDs and kept all the songs on my ipod? :?
Still illegal for all the reasons already posted, though it would be tricky to find out or prove

That makes me think about the fact that I go to quite a few garage sales (boot sales for you Brits!), and to second hand stores, even to Goodwill and Salvation Army stores. I find A LOT of CD's (and vinyl albums) for sale at all of them. Not only music CD's but also software. So, these were originally "gifted" to Goodwill or Salvation Army, the second hand stores pay a small amount for them, then sell them for more than they paid for them and at the garage sales they're just pulled out of someone's collection and put up for sale. There's also a chain of bookstores that I frequent - Half Price Books - and they buy music from the public and resell for profit. There's also the pawn shops....... you can find all kinds of music being re-sold for profit in those as well.

So, my question is: Is what they're doing illegal as well? And, if so, why does Half Price Books and the second hand shops and Goodwill and the Salvation Army and the pawn shops seem to do it with no ill effects whatsoever?

Just curious.......... :D

No, what they're doing isn't illegal.

I buy used CDs all the time too... if the original user kept a copy, they're breaking the law, but if they didn't, they're tranferring their individual license to you. You aren't breaking the law in either case.

The record companies want to change that, and the software companies are giving them models - 'seat' licenses (where anyone can use it, but only on one machine) and non-transferrable licenses requiring individual registration. We'll probably see the day soon when you won't be able to transfer a license to music.