No Girls Allowed?

One of the hardest things for me has always been that you are forced into a role you don't want. I've seen comments about women who are scantally clad to "hide their lack of talent." Then you get the ones that cover up and say they do it so women know they don't have to show off skin. Don't want to be mean here but, how about I just wear whatever I want?

Oh, only that it were so easy.

Consider the Wilson sisters.

Fantastic talent, but basically their run at the top was cut short not because of lack of new musical ideas or songs but because Ann was too heavy to be seen as a sex idol.

Take a look at who's getting air-play on the music video channels. For guys, looks don't matter, talent's the thing. For women, it's just not that easy.

It shouldn't be that way. But that's the market forces at play.

Missed this the first time around (I seem to be saying that a lot lately), but I'm glad I found it, very interesting.
But women can be just as bad. You get things like "show off your moxy" "you go girl" "way to represent." I always found that patronizing. They all seem to imply that I have some sort of handicap as a musician and by doing what I'm doing I'm overcoming it.
That always makes me cringe too, it's just accepting the chauvenism they think they're standing up to.

Wow that article in itself was a great motivator. Step aside people, the first female rock n' roll heroine has arrived!!

*coughs* at least as soon as I actually learn to play :)

Ditto! :D

Missed this the first time around (I seem to be saying that a lot lately), but I'm glad I found it, very interesting.
But women can be just as bad. You get things like "show off your moxy" "you go girl" "way to represent." I always found that patronizing. They all seem to imply that I have some sort of handicap as a musician and by doing what I'm doing I'm overcoming it.
That always makes me cringe too, it's just accepting the chauvenism they think they're standing up to.

I disagree that comments such as "You go girl" are patronizing. I guess it all depends on who is saying it, but I would say something like that as encouragement and a statement of enthusiastic girl-pride.

It may be a generational difference. Younger women have grown up accustomed to much greater equality than women of my (middle) age and older, and so may feel more able to ignore male chauvinism. When my older sister was in high school, girls weren't allowed to wear pants to public school even--had to be dresses or skirts, and nylons--no bare legs. Girls weren't offered extracurricular sports equally with boys. Employers weren't required to pay women the same as men for equal work. Etc...

Younger women may have heard about the "olden days", but they didn't experience them. And that makes a whale of a difference in perspective.

When I say "Go get 'em." there is a tinge of avengement in that statement. Meaning, "You get out there and make us proud. You get out there and do what we should've always been doing, but didn't used to "know" that we could." We didn't have those role models, we didn't have society's support, and as a result, we didn't have the internal belief that we COULD.

When I say, "Represent!" I'm saying, "Thank you for showing my daughter and all who follow what she can do, too, if she wants to."

It sure isn't "accepting" male chauvinism. It's a statement of defiance against it. And yes, it still exists, even if not in the degree it did forty years ago. Denying its existence or refusing to recognize it doesn't mean it isn't there.

Margaret

I was never for "girl power." You never see men say "guy power" or form all guy bands to prove a point. Obviously, men were never oppressed and don't feel the need to prove their gender. But if a man doesn't have to prove himself as male guitarist then I don't have to prove myself as a female guitarist. To me, that's equality.

This whole representing, girl power and needing influences to inspire confidence..............it just makes me feel like I'm beneath the males and have to fight my way up to their level. Which just simply is not true. That's why such comments always felt condensing to me. They may not be said with that intention but to me it just feels like a push to get up to playing with the big boys.

I do agree that it's a generational thing. Aside from the guy that's told me all female guitarists suck, I've had nothing but support. More so I grew up as one of the guys so it was never hard for me to fit in with them.

Glad to hear that you've received plenty of support, OWA. That's the way it should be.

I caution against interpreting some people's manner of showing support as being something other than support, i.e., condescension. It may just be that they have a different perspective than yours when it comes to the glass ceiling.

Women who have experienced gender discrimination might, in turn, misinterpret your cavalier attitude as being unappreciative of the battles hard-fought and won by preceding generations of women.

It's my belief that on occasion and when appropriate, banding together (maximizing the girl power factor) can speed up the transition to true equality.

Margaret

One guy was eavesdropping and said "all female guitarists suck."

That's one of the things that kept me from playing for so many years. My second (and final) ex-husband, also a player, would make little snide comments about female players, things like "women just can't play rock and roll" (referring to the Wilson sisters of Heart), etc.... So, I didn't even try to start playing again until after I divorced him. It was bad enough having to listen to his comments directed at other women, I didn't want to have to listen to them being directed at me, too. And, yes, it was my own insecurity that enabled him to have that sort of power over me. I'm glad you've got a much healthier ego than I did when I was younger, OWA! I'm real tempted to say, "You go, girl!", but I won't! LOL!

:D

I don't think it is necessarily about talent or ability so much as the role women prefer to take. I thought this quote from the article said it best.

"Women are the support players in life," says Wilson, speaking on a cell phone from a tour bus in San Diego, where she and the band are promoting their latest album, "Jupiter's Darling." "I think we nurture, we support, we make the canvas for everyone else to shine on. For me it's always been more about songwriting. Playing lead is really fun, I really get off on playing lead, but that feels more like an ego pose to me."

I think most women are just more comfortable playing rythm guitar, playing acoustic or writing songs and I don't think that means there is something wrong. Like a couple of you already said, we are made differently than men. In life, we are the support. Even those of us who have careers and responsibilities outside the home are still the support system in it. Whether it be with family or friends we are the ones who "nurture, support", and "make the canvas for everyone else to shine on". It is only natural for that to spill over onto our musical lives. This could be the reason why there are more women musicians in classical or say country music than in rock. Those historically have been less showy and more group or even family oriented genres.

Is it wrong for a woman to play lead in a rock band? Not at all. If some want to and are talented enough then they should be given the same opportunities as a man. But this is the real world we live in and, as in everything else, women have to fight twice as hard to get anywhere in a traditionally male role. Hopefully the tide is turning for all you gals that want to be a smokin hot lead player. Personally, I am more comfortable strumming my acoustic. I would rather learn to play and sing what I consider to be the heart and soul of a song than practice a lead. Leads just bore me, but that's just me and I don't feel the least bit upset that I won't ever be considered the first female Jimmy Hendrix.

It sure isn't "accepting" male chauvinism. It's a statement of defiance against it. And yes, it still exists, even if not in the degree it did forty years ago.
Yes it's there, but is it worth acknowledging? ('Accepting' was the wrong word). By responding to it in any way other than dismissal, I think you're volunteering to defend yourselves against it when it should be the other way around - if a chauvenist wants his opinion to be worth anything, he should be justifying it. I'm truly sorry if this offends, it's just the way I see it.

It sure isn't "accepting" male chauvinism. It's a statement of defiance against it. And yes, it still exists, even if not in the degree it did forty years ago.
Yes it's there, but is it worth acknowledging? ('Accepting' was the wrong word). By responding to it in any way other than dismissal, I think you're volunteering to defend yourselves against it when it should be the other way around - if a chauvenist wants his opinion to be worth anything, he should be justifying it. I'm truly sorry if this offends, it's just the way I see it.
Ignore it and it will go away--it's a nice theory, but if we want to see real change within our own lifetimes, I think we have to be more proactive than that. Personally, I feel that the "ignore" approach is too close to tacit approval and enabling.

It may be easier for those who haven't felt discrimination personally to take a passive stance. That's not me. I'm all for firing up our sisters and daughters who are blazing new trails. And when it comes out as an enthusiastic, "You GO, girl!" I surely don't want them to think I'm condescending. Rather, I'm championing them as my hero.

Margaret

I'm not saying I think it should be ignored, I'm saying I think it should be dismissed without acknowledgement of having any value. Those things are a pole apart.

But women can be just as bad. You get things like "show off your moxy" "you go girl" "way to represent." I always found that patronizing. They all seem to imply that I have some sort of handicap as a musician and by doing what I'm doing I'm overcoming it.
That always makes me cringe too, it's just accepting the chauvenism they think they're standing up to.

I'm not saying I think it should be ignored, I'm saying I think it should be dismissed without acknowledgement of having any value. Those things are a pole apart.

The part I don't understand is how one woman encouraging another ("show off your moxy" "you go girl" "way to represent") is interpreted as being either condescending or accepting/acknowledging chauvinism. It's like saying support/encouragment is only valid when it comes from anyone EXCEPT another woman (i.e., from a man), which is chauvinistic in itself.

I just don't get that.

Margaret

Guys get similar comments to "you go girl" for example "rock on, dude." So I agree, a comment like that is just supportive. With the exception of the "way to represent." I still see it as trying to get up to the guy's level. Plus it's a role I never wanted.

It's also tricky with comments like that too. If you play the girl card too much, reprensent too much or just make political statements, then the musician part goes away. You end up being just a statement.

The part I don't understand is how one woman encouraging another ("show off your moxy" "you go girl" "way to represent") is interpreted as being either condescending or accepting/acknowledging chauvinism. It's like saying support/encouragment is only valid when it comes from anyone EXCEPT another woman (i.e., from a man), which is chauvinistic in itself.

I just don't get that.
Imagine a world where some people consider hair length to be relevent to ability (I have long hair). If I played something and someone with short hair said "way to go, hippy-locks!", that would be condescending. If someone with long hair said the same, that would be acknowledging that it was relevent, because otherwise why mention it?

On the one hand you argue that it is an entirely meaningless criteria, but on the other you use it as a criteria when lending support. Do you see where I'm coming from?

Guys get similar comments to "you go girl" for example "rock on, dude." So I agree, a comment like that is just supportive. With the exception of the "way to represent." I still see it as trying to get up to the guy's level. Plus it's a role I never wanted.

It's also tricky with comments like that too. If you play the girl card too much, reprensent too much or just make political statements, then the musician part goes away. You end up being just a statement. Gotta disagree with you there. Bob Dylan, Neil Young and numerous other bands and individual artists have built their careers on making political statements. No one is going to take a position that Young or Dylan are not musicians because of it.